Smart 2.0

Looks like Mammut have adressed the poor braking performance of the Smart by doing the obvious, taking the braking part from the ClickUp (which wasn´t patented) and building it into the Smart. I´ve a Smart Alpine which is modified this way and it´s for sure a massive improvement.

https://vimeo.com/222694028

I'm curious to see how mammut's new biner does with the new smart. In my experience, the old smart belay biner didn't have a round enough cross section and caused it to lock up more frequently while trying to feed slack and other biners with a completely round cross section, such as the old attache, worked much more smoothly

Jim Titt wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What was that clip on piece called (2:20)?  Looks like CT built that directly into their new Click Up Plus. You mentioned Mammut borrowed from the Click Up and it seems they may have borrowed that as well (or vice versa.)

They called it the "Smarter", and after watching the video again, it does appear to be optional and an extra cost if you watch right to the end where they list the prices. I'm curious to know why they would make it optional. I have a feeling that beginners who do not know any better are not likely to buy an extra piece that goes with it, and more advanced climbers might not either thinking their belay technique is solid and safe. 

eli poss wrote: I'm curious to see how mammut's new biner does with the new smart. In my experience, the old smart belay biner didn't have a round enough cross section and caused it to lock up more frequently while trying to feed slack and other biners with a completely round cross section, such as the old attache, worked much more smoothly

I've never had that experience at all with the Alpine Smart Belay using the Mammut Crag Smart HMS carabiner. I wonder if you are not pulling outward and away from your body as much as upward on the nose to keep it open while feeding slack?

anotherclimber wrote:

How is it that you believe the braking part is from the ClickUp? The carabiner path doesn't look a lot different than the current Smart Belay. A little straighter, and less curved for sure. What's so different about it? I'm all for greater braking action and hope they update the Alpine version. Will you be testing the braking force of this device when it comes out?

On the Smart the karabiner presses the rope against a round bobbin, as do most of this type (the MegaJul against the body of the device). On the ClickUp the karabiner presses the rope against a hooked piece with a groove in it (the best way I can describe it) and gives far higher braking force, incidentally designed by the guy who invented the ribbed Vee grooves in the ATC XP. The new Smart has basically this same design.

I might test it or I might not, I don´t actually need or want another single-rope device so my enthusiasm is limited!

Jim Titt wrote:

On the Smart the karabiner presses the rope against a round bobbin, as do most of this type (the MegaJul against the body of the device). On the ClickUp the karabiner presses the rope against a hooked piece with a groove in it (the best way I can describe it) and gives far higher braking force, incidentally designed by the guy who invented the ribbed Vee grooves in the ATC XP. The new Smart has basically this same design.

I might test it or I might not, I don´t actually need or want another single-rope device so my enthusiasm is limited!

Thanks for the explanation Jim. That's exactly what I was looking for. 

anotherclimber wrote:

They called it the "Smarter", and after watching the video again, it does appear to be optional and an extra cost if you watch right to the end where they list the prices. I'm curious to know why they would make it optional. I have a feeling that beginners who do not know any better are not likely to buy an extra piece that goes with it, and more advanced climbers might not either thinking their belay technique is solid and safe. 

I've never had that experience at all with the Alpine Smart Belay using the Mammut Crag Smart HMS carabiner. I wonder if you are not pulling outward and away from your body as much as upward on the nose to keep it open while feeding slack?

I prefered to feed slack like an ATC when ever possible with the smart, only using the lever to feed slack when it locks up. Similar to not keeping your thumb in a cam worth a gri. I found that with the recommended belay biner I pretty much always had to use the lever to slack, while I could usually feed without the lever using a round stock carabiner

eli poss wrote:

I prefered to feed slack like an ATC when ever possible with the smart, only using the lever to feed slack when it locks up. Similar to not keeping your thumb in a cam worth a gri. I found that with the recommended belay biner I pretty much always had to use the lever to slack, while I could usually feed without the lever using a round stock carabiner

That would make sense. Although there is no safety issue like the Grigri of keeping the thumb constantly on the cam. You are supposed to put your thumb back under the nose without pushing it upward or outward while pulling down on the brake strand to keep it locked after each taking in or giving of slack. The Megajul is much the same way. That way you can feed slack at a moments notice by pressing upward and outward with your thumb that is already there rather than fumbling for it and/or shorting the climber. I have a climbing partner that tries to do what you do and shorts me all the time. I can understand though. I know a lot of people who are not willing to change their belay technique for certain brake assisted belay devices.

anotherclimber wrote:

That would make sense. Although there is no safety issue like the Grigri of keeping the thumb constantly on the cam. You are supposed to put your thumb back under the nose without pushing it upward or outward while pulling down on the brake strand to keep it locked after each taking in or giving of slack. The Megajul is much the same way. That way you can feed slack at a moments notice by pressing upward and outward with your thumb that is already there rather than fumbling for it and/or shorting the climber. I have a climbing partner that tries to do what you do and shorts me all the time. I can understand though. I know a lot of people who are not willing to change their belay technique for certain brake assisted belay devices.

Yeah, I prefer to keep my brake hand down at my hip whenever possible. I used to short people all the time with the smart but after I got the hang of it I could feed rope smoothly the whole time and with some attentiveness and anticipation I could use the lever to feed slack quickly for clipping. Now I use the alpine up, though, and it never locks up while I'm trying to feed slack so the only time I ever short rope anybody is when I'm not paying attention, which is rare.

Anonymous wrote:

I've never used any of the Smart devices, so I'm not sure if there is a significant difference between the Smart and the Alpine Smart (aside from double ropes and guide mode?) With that said and as long as I'm not missing something, I can't imagine them not updating the Smart Alpine to 2.0 as well. Seems like a good move on their part if they want to sell more devices.

Nope, no difference aside from what you mentioned. I was thinking much the same. It would be rather strange for them not to update the double rope alpine version.

Can we get a weekly thread where people just ask Jim Titt questions? That would be entertaining and informative.

So wait, this is just a shitty version of the upcoming Black Diamond ATC Pilot? Seems like it

adeadhead wrote:

So wait, this is just a shitty version of the upcoming Black Diamond ATC Pilot? Seems like it

No. The Pilot is a knock off of the Salewa. Both are less functional attempts at mimicking the Smart.

n00b wrote:

No. The Pilot is a knock off of the Salewa. Both are less functional attempts at mimicking the Smart.

How is the smart (2) more functional than the pilot?

adeadhead wrote:

How is the smart (2) more functional than the pilot?

Well, for one, the pilot doesn't exist yet, and therefore doesn't function at all.

n00b wrote:

Well, for one, the pilot doesn't exist yet, and therefore doesn't function at all.

What if I told you I was holding one.

Seems to exist to me. 

adeadhead wrote:

What if I told you I was holding one.

Seems to exist to me. 

wow you're really cool congrats

adeadhead wrote:

What if I told you I was holding one.

Seems to exist to me. 

First, how did you get it?     Are you a beta tester?   Did you get it for free? 

Second, how smooth is it compare to ATC/ATC-XP/ATC-Guide when paying out slack?        

Third, have you used Smart Alpine or MegaJul, if you did, how does BD Pilot compare?      

Forth Do you have to worry about focused carabiner wear? Is BD Pilot very sensitive to binner choice?

Fifth, anything you wish BD Pilot would improve upon?

Sixth, have you tried rappeling on a fixed rope with BD Pilot? How is the rappel?

Anonymous wrote:

I've never used any of the Smart devices, so I'm not sure if there is a significant difference between the Smart and the Alpine Smart (aside from double ropes and guide mode?) With that said and as long as I'm not missing something, I can't imagine them not updating the Smart Alpine to 2.0 as well. Seems like a good move on their part if they want to sell more devices.

I'm kind of certain that Mammut will make Smart Alpine 2.0 

Every company makes sport version first and then make alpine/trad version later.    

And it makes sense from business point of view, because single slot sport version is cheaper to make and you want to see how the market responds to a new design with cheaper model.

The question is how much better 2.0 will be compared to the original, because I have Smart Alpine and it's solid C+/B-. 

Johnathan Donn wrote:

First, how did you get it?     Are you a beta tester?   Did you get it for free? 

A prototype was sent to where I work

Second, how smooth is it compare to ATC/ATC-XP/ATC-Guide when paying out slack?        

I'm a huge fan, it exerts less friction on the rope (likely due to the assisted breaking) so lead belaying is a dream

Third, have you used Smart Alpine or MegaJul, if you did, how does BD Pilot compare?      

Havn't used the smart, I like it more than the megajul because it keeps the rope off of your hand. I don't feel like it's an incredible improvement over the jul2

Forth Do you have to worry about focused carabiner wear? Is BD Pilot very sensitive to binner choice?

Nope, I've been using everything from a BD pearabiner to an old chouinard d

Fifth, anything you wish BD Pilot would improve upon?

Not particularly. I'm certainly going to be picking one up as a replacement to my grigri, but I'll be keeping my atc guide for outdoor climbing

Sixth, have you tried rappeling on a fixed rope with BD Pilot? How is the rappel?

I havn't. I'll see if there's an opportunity tonight.