Assisted belay device? Which one for what?

Mark L wrote:

1) I'm sorry but this is poor advice.  The Grigri is tried and true, 

2) She might prefer the Up, but the general consensus is that the Grigri is the go to device.

3) If you simply rely on user experiences, reviews, statistics, and popularity/ease of use, the Grigri is a no brainer. 

Sigh...

1) It isn't poor advice. The grigri is tried, but hardly true given the amount of dropping going on.

2) The only reason the grigri is the "go to device" is because it's the best, most popular hanging device, actually belaying has little to do with it. More monkey see, monkey do than monkey thought particularly hard about it.

3) If you relied on the user experiences of the dropped, statistics of dropping, and ease of fucking up, the grigri should give people more pause than it does.

Healyje wrote:

Sigh...

1) It isn't poor advice. The grigri is tried, but hardly true given the amount of dropping going on.

2) The only reason the grigri is the "go to device" is because it's the best, most popular hanging device, actually belaying has little to do with it. More monkey see, monkey do than monkey thought particularly hard about it.

3) If you relied on the user experiences of the dropped, statistics of dropping, and ease of fucking up, the grigri should give people more pause than it does.

If you read my post you would have noticed the line about how only you can make a decision on which device is best for you.  I'm sorry though, the number one device in that category is the Grigri, and for good reasons.  Everyone has their own preferences though, which is why I recommended that the OP try out every device that he listed before committing to one.  Btw, drops only occur when the Grigri isn't used properly, which is inevitable with any device if you fail to use it improperly.  The only reason that there seems to be an abundance of Grigri mishaps is because of the sheer number of people that use it; especially beginners.  The same thing applies to car accidents.  The more drivers on the road, the more accidents will be experienced.  

Mark L wrote:

If you read my post you would have noticed the line about how only you can make a decision on which device is best for you.  I'm sorry though, the number one device in that category is the Grigri, and for good reasons.  Everyone has their own preferences though, which is why I recommended that the OP try out every device that he listed before committing to one.  Btw, drops only occur when the Grigri isn't used properly, which is inevitable with any device if you fail to use it improperly.  The only reason that there seems to be an abundance of Grigri mishaps is because of the sheer number of people that use it; especially beginners.  The same thing applies to car accidents.  The more drivers on the road, the more accidents will be experienced.  

Did you mean to say "fail to use it improperly"? :-)

I don't think we actually disagree, except for your wording of my choice. It is okay to make a choice that is different, but sound.

That said, I will add that I did get to try out the Jul and Megajul devices, with an Edulrid guy.

If I had different needs, the improved single rope device (with more metal) is straightforward and nice. The two slot device is fine, but I have specific problems with it (having to do with me, not the device), so that was ruled out also. They are common enough, though, that they are also ones folks recommend, are "tried and true", but, again, once actually in my hands, not the device for me.

Best, OLH

+1 for GriGri2

Keep your hand on the brake rope like any other device. 

Mark L wrote:

the number one device in that category is the Grigri, and for good reasons

#1 reason: holding hanging climbers.

Christ, can anyone provide these "statistics" of all the gri gri drops? The only statistics I ever saw were the ones published by the DAV, which actually show that you are less likely to be dropped by a gri. 

the schmuck wrote:

Christ, can anyone provide these "statistics" of all the gri gri drops? The only statistics I ever saw were the ones published by the DAV, which actually show that you are less likely to be dropped by a gri. 

You can read MP forums right - that's about as close to a statistic as anyone is going to get.

Actually, that is a relatively useless form of data.  It only gives us raw numbers, not failure rates.  Grigris may account for most accidents, but they also count for the overwhelming majority of belays.  The only meaningful metric would be failures per pitch climbed.  Even that would need to be adjusted for the experience of the belayer (anecdotally, beginners tend towards tube style devices, likely for cost).  

Ultimately, while not scientifically compelling, I think that the general observation that virtually all experienced climbers use gri gris is telling.  I have been climbing for over thirty years, I too have hip belayed, used a sticht plate, micro-belay, and atc, and resisted using a grigri for years (I'm a cheap bastard) and while all are safe given proper technique, once I tried a gri gri I have never reverted.  Your only argument is that a properly done belay with a different device is better than an improper belay with a gri gri.  This is at times true.  However, even a poor gri gri belay is often safe, and as long as that fact is not used to encourage poor technique, the grigri is clearly better.  You really have to try to drop someone with one, where tube devices and hip belays will fail with a far less egregious error.

Kyle Edmondson wrote:

Actually, that is a relatively useless form of data.  It only gives us raw numbers, not failure rates.  Grigris may account for most accidents, but they also count for the overwhelming majority of belays.  The only meaningful metric would be failures per pitch climbed.  Even that would need to be adjusted for the experience of the belayer (anecdotally, beginners tend towards tube style devices, likely for cost).  

Ultimately, while not scientifically compelling, I think that the general observation that virtually all experienced climbers use gri gris is telling.  I have been climbing for over thirty years, I too have hip belayed, used a sticht plate, micro-belay, and atc, and resisted using a grigri for years (I'm a cheap bastard) and while all are safe given proper technique, once I tried a gri gri I have never reverted.  Your only argument is that a properly done belay with a different device is better than an improper belay with a gri gri.  This is at times true.  However, even a poor gri gri belay is often safe, and as long as that fact is not used to encourage poor technique, the grigri is clearly better.  You really have to try to drop someone with one, where tube devices and hip belays will fail with a far less egregious error.

This 100%

Kyle Edmondson wrote:

Actually, that is a relatively useless form of data.  It only gives us raw numbers, not failure rates.  Grigris may account for most accidents, but they also count for the overwhelming majority of belays.  The only meaningful metric would be failures per pitch climbed.  Even that would need to be adjusted for the experience of the belayer (anecdotally, beginners tend towards tube style devices, likely for cost).  

Ultimately, while not scientifically compelling, I think that the general observation that virtually all experienced climbers use gri gris is telling.  I have been climbing for over thirty years, I too have hip belayed, used a sticht plate, micro-belay, and atc, and resisted using a grigri for years (I'm a cheap bastard) and while all are safe given proper technique, once I tried a gri gri I have never reverted.  Your only argument is that a properly done belay with a different device is better than an improper belay with a gri gri.  This is at times true.  However, even a poor gri gri belay is often safe, and as long as that fact is not used to encourage poor technique, the grigri is clearly better.  You really have to try to drop someone with one, where tube devices and hip belays will fail with a far less egregious error.

All that's required is to spend time here and you realize there are not many folks on MP who a) haven't been dropped, b) that haven't seen someone get dropped, and c) don't know anyone who's dropped or been dropped.

And it's not about the devices per se, it's about human behavior. The grigri plays to the worst of human behavior in that, the more a device does, the less people will take full responsibility for belaying. It unavoidably breeds inattentiveness,  distraction, and an assumption that it will compensate if one isn't on top of things. Add to that more complex mechanics and belaying modalities and you aren't really improving the situation overall.

The result over time? The biggest risk the average climber faces in today's 'modern' climbing world is their belayer, and that's because the entire grigri-equipped demographic has essentially become a random dropping generator. 

So your argument is essentially that the gri gri is so much better that people get sloppy.  I agree with the first part of that sentiment.  Your anti-gri-gri tirade should be redirected to the source of the actual problem, which is inattentive belaying.  

I see you as basically saying, since you more likely survive a crash wearing a seatbelt, you are less careful driving, therefore we shouldn't have seatbelts.  

And, I have never been dropped, dropped anyone, or seen anyone dropped.  I would also note that the universe of MP posters does not accurately represent the climbing community - it draws heavily on new climbers learning in a gym.  Watching the variety of suggestions given to new climbers can be difficult - it is a blind leading the blind situation.  Objectively, if the question is which device works best when used properly, it could be any.  Which functions best when used improperly - the gri-gri by a ton.  The device will cover up the vast majority of mistakes.  I commend your desire to caution people of this effect and encourage people not to take it for granted.  However, an assertion that it is not the superior device is just not accurate.  

My only issue with the Gri Gri is it only does single ropes - we use a GG2 for sport climbing with no issues.  I climb with my wife most of the time on double ropes (on trad) and with the newer smaller super dry coated ropes (read slick as heck) she questions catching me on falls (she always has but she does have a bit of a confidence problem about it - I'm a pretty big guy).  She uses a Reverso 4 - I am considering some form of assisted device that does double ropes for her for trad multi pitch.   Alpine Up does look interesting for the purpose we desire.   

I wonder whether any of the Grigri drops occur when the belayer is using the "new technique" rather than using it in some other manner (e.g., holding down the cam with entire hand).

And while we don't really know what the belayer was doing, I'd be interested to hear when a belayer even claims to be using the "new technique" after a drop.

I ask because the new technique seems very close to idiot proof.  I can def see short roping climbers using the technique and I've done that from time to time (happens less as you get better with it, which doesn't take long).   But I just don't see how a drop could occur when using anything very close to the new technique.

(I'm sure we've all heard sayings to the effect of "the problem with making things idiot proof is the idiots just keep getting better" -- I don't mean to say that one can't use a Grigri and drop someone, just that the "new technique" seems extremely safe even when used by imperfect belayer and it will take a really "talented" belayer to figure out how to drop someone when using it.)

Kyle Edmondson wrote:

So your argument is essentially that the gri gri is so much better that people get sloppy.  

• Not at all. The grigri is only just good enough that it actively promotes sloppiness, not that people just "get sloppy".

Your anti-gri-gri tirade should be redirected to the source of the actual problem, which is inattentive belaying.  

• Which is exactly what my tirade is about - behavior - and the fact that grigris promote said inattentiveness.

I see you as basically saying, since you more likely survive a crash wearing a seatbelt, you are less careful driving, therefore we shouldn't have seatbelts. 

• Bad analogy. A better analogy would be self-driving cars - do you think people are going to remain attentive and undistracted if they aren't driving? Will their driving get better or worse if they spend say 70% of their time in autodrive? Hmmm. Let me hazard a guess, it's going to be a debacle at first and will quickly lead to a scenario where in many urban settings you won't be allowed to drive yourself without special dispensation.

And, I have never been dropped, dropped anyone, or seen anyone dropped.  

• Fabulous, same here. I suspect we're in a small minority.

I would also note that the universe of MP posters does not accurately represent the climbing community - it draws heavily on new climbers learning in a gym.  

• True, I suspect it's much worse out in the wild. And just what percentage of 'modern climbers' do you suppose don't learn in a gym?

Objectively, if the question is which device works best when used properly, it could be any.  

• And that's the question - what devices tend to be used improperly more than others - grigris by a ton.

Which functions best when used improperly - the gri-gri by a ton. 

• 99 times out of a 100 for sure; bummer if you're that one where it doesn't.

The device will cover up the vast majority of mistakes. 

• Exactly the problem; couldn't have said it better myself.

 I commend your desire to caution people of this effect and encourage people not to take it for granted.  

• The problem is the behavioral changes grigris foster over time are fairly immune to any amount of talking.

However, an assertion that it is not the superior device is just not accurate.  

• It is not a "superior device" specifically because it actively encourages less than superior belaying behaviors.

I'll post one more and move on.  You continue to assert that there are more accidents with grigris based on your theory that it encourages poor behavior.  There is no actual data to support this.  Or, I would add, to counter it.  Your feeling is that it causes more problems in behavior than it corrects by it's function.  My experience differs, as does that of all the climbers I know.  However, ours is anecdotal as well.  

I guess what I take issue with most is that your assertions are so strong and certain, despite there being no way for you to be remotely certain.  You must know that your position w/r/t grigris is very much an outlier among the serious climbing community.  

So, to treat this in as logically sound way as I can, what I know for a fact is that grigris used correctly are safe.  What I believe is that the grigri is the best choice based on the fact that the overwhelming majority of experts choose it.  I recognize that this evidence is not perfect, but in the absence of hard data it is all we have. (note: your reading of accident reports and MP threads as data is completely invalid as a source given the lack of usage rates for devices, among other confounding variables, and must be disregarded).  I also prefer it based on personal experience over the years, which statistically means very little. 

Setting most of the above aside, there are two broad categories for assisted braking: cam style, and tube style with carabineer.

The tube with carabiner is the direction I chose. The jul is okay, but the Up was a better fit. 

It is just a choice. FWIW, I am aware of a few experienced climbers who also like the Up, and I have had extensive conversations with them about it.

Also FWIW, short of not even clipping the rope into the carabineer, myself and others are hard pressed to find ways to fuck up with the Up, for belaying. At worst, the belay ends up being an unassisted ATC belay. Big whoop.

I use grigris. Regularly. The only thing I have "against" them, is being single rope. And. I am not a good fit for them as a belay device. Me. Not the device. 

I post my experience, because it is possible others may, might, perhaps, find it useful, not to further the pro/anti grigri wars.

Sheesh.

But have fun. My Up is here, we will be getting to know it tonight. :-)

Best, OLH

Climbing has 'experts' now? Good to know.

Yep, there is not data on dropping, but just from a cursory search / read here and at similar sites around the world it's obviously quite prevalent.

My position on a lot of things are outliers: like chalk only being necessary a fraction of the amount of time it gets used; that people would have a hard time climbing if they weren't climbing-by-the-dots; and - my favorite - that 99.9% of the time you fall, you aren't falling at your physical limit, but rather jumping off at your emotional limit.

Kaihaku wrote:

I am wanting to pick up an assisted braking belay device and after asking around I have come across a lot of various opinions and options. After a bit of considering, I narrowed down my options to these devices,

Petzl Grigri 2

Mad Rock Lifeguard

Climbing Technology Click Up/Alpine Up

Camp Matik

So I thought I'd ask, what are each of these belay devices strengths and weaknesses in your guys opinion, and what are each of them best suited for?

Thank you for any info?

If you haven't purchased a device yet, I have a Camp Matik I don't use (only used a handful of times) for sale cheap. 

Healyje wrote:

Sigh...

1) It isn't poor advice. The grigri is tried, but hardly true given the amount of dropping going on.

2) The only reason the grigri is the "go to device" is because it's the best, most popular hanging device, actually belaying has little to do with it. More monkey see, monkey do than monkey thought particularly hard about it.

3) If you relied on the user experiences of the dropped, statistics of dropping, and ease of fucking up, the grigri should give people more pause than it does.

Preface, I learned on a tube device and was against the grigri until last fall. I'm left handed and didn't want to relearn with my right hand for the brake strand. Then I tried it over the winter in the gym and quickly became a convert. 

Your second reason, sorry that's not it. I've used atc, reverso, mega jul, jul 2, gigi plate, munter, boot axe, hip belay, and a grigri. 90% of the time for rock I will lead belay with a grigri. I am frequently climbing with female partners who are 50lbs lighter than me, I find that the abrupt lock up makes it far easier to nail the timing of my jump to provide a soft catch. This applies for gear, not just bolts. Before the impact force argument, I've caught on RPs w/o issue. Don't place shit gear or climb choss (and if it's choss I may bust out the tube device, also will likely be on half ropes so a tube is the way to go). The jul/smart devices lock off the leader without a hand on also.

Here's the thing about a grigri and being dropped, the belayer has to be VERY ACTIVELY involved in COMPLETELY fucking up in order to drop the leader. You have to pinch the whole device in your hand and pinch the cam down, then likely also have a death grip on the climber strand, in order to let a leader drop. First off it's quite easy to just simply belay the right way in the fast feed method with only your index finger under the tab, other three around the rope. If the leader happens to fall mid clip you will not be able to hold the cam open from this position, your index finger flat out can't keep the thing open, it goes blown to the side and the cam engages (yes I've found this to be the case in real life falls). Personally I belay with the grigri just like a tube device until the leader wants to make a high clip fast. My thumb is only on the cam for a brief moment. 

A tube device on the other hand requires attention to a firm grip on the brake strand 100% of the time, belayer gets stung by a bee and you might get dropped.  Grigri bee stung belayer running around with their hands over their head trying to find an epi pen, well their rope is still going to lock up when the leader falls, even without a hand on the rope. I'll take the later any day, I'd rather have the device that requires a belayer to actively TRY HARD to fuck up rather than the one which requires a second lapse in attention for failure.

As for the brake assisted devices, I think it's nice in theory. After a great amount of use I found them to just be annoying. Their performance is completely dependent on the rope used and carabiner cross section. The grigri performs exactly the same on any rope in my 8.9-9.9 range of use. Megajul pays out slack on a 9.8 like shit, but locks great. Jul2 pays out slack with a 9.8 great, but doesn't lock as well in a high force fall with a heavier leader. Grigri pays out slack great on any diameter and locks up the same for every weight climber.

Grigri wins for simul climbing also. 

A final note on the brake assisted devices, do not believe the stated rope range. Mega Jul says it works down to a 7.8mm rope. With the edelrid recommended "strike" biner on an 8mm mammut half rope if failed to provide as much assistance as an original ATC (not ridge V slot) would. My belayers hand was slammed into the device, thankfully they grabbed the brake strand with their other hand as well. Took a lot to even hold me up, didn't lock remotely. An ATC with two biners on the same rope arrests a fall with VERY little grip required.

Healyje wrote:

Sigh...

3) If you relied on the user experiences of the dropped, statistics of dropping, and ease of fucking up, the grigri should give people more pause than it does.

Yes but quite possibly the main contributing factor to that is the fact that everyone in their mother uses the GriGri. If you looked at number of deaths to determine how dangerous something is, driving a car would appear to be 20x more dangerous than free soloing. Further, there seems to be a really lackadaisical attitude around using the device. Many times climbers start with an ATC and then graduate to the GriGri and think there is nothing new to learn. Very few people take the time to watch Petzl's videos and practice, or even bother to read the user manual. However, it's not much different with other devices in that aspect, just less noticeable as other devices are less common.