Climbing Technologies Alpine Up Review

Jim Titt wrote:

For climbing with double ropes the Alpine Up is by a long way the best of the "assisted" braking devices though the limited gains don´t justify the downsides in my opinion. For single-rope climbing there´s no reason to use it in preference to a number of better devices.

Sure, unless you want something that can rap, is assisted braking, and doesn't require you to learn a new technique to belay. In which case it is the only option. Just don't use it with really fat ropes.

Old lady H wrote:

Hm? You gave up on your Alpine Up, but consider it a better mousetrap? Just outdoors? 

OLH

Yes just outdoors, and with half ropes at that.  But it isn't indoors/outdoors, its just that a lot of gym ropes are too fat for the UP.    I never tried the smart or jul on fat ropes so don't know how they compare.

cjohns716 wrote:

Sorry if youve outlined this already but which would you recommend for single ropes? I'm assuming you need a combo ie a grigri and a regular old ATC to be able to belay, rap, belay up second etc.

Single-pitch sport climbing I use a GriGri (we never rap off), otherwise an ATC XP. Trying to make one device that does everything means it will do many things poorly and it´s better to have a range of options, as indeed rgold does, choosing the best tool for the circumstances. If I was only permitted one device for all my climbing it would be an ATC XP.    

eli poss wrote:

Sure, unless you want something that can rap, is assisted braking, and doesn't require you to learn a new technique to belay. In which case it is the only option. Just don't use it with really fat ropes.

Except rappeling is not the greatest experience in the world with reasonably thick ropes unless you use the horrific system CT developed to reduce the friction (anyone actually ever used this?), "assisted" braking is available elsewhere and more reliably. Learning a new belay technique isn´t exactly difficult and you will have to do it with the Alpine UP anyway the first time you short-rope your partner since releasing the locked mode isn´t exactly standard practice with a conventional plate.

Having to choose ropes depending on the belay device is putting the cart before the horse, the decision on which rope to use is governed by many factors and either ones device should be able to cope with all the sizes we use OR you use a number of different devices. Expecting a climbing gym (or your partner) to provide a super-slick 9.2mm rope to suit your choice of device is unrealistic.

I've used the alpine up with ropes up to stiff old fat 10.2 and I've never had it lock up while trying to feed slack. And I rarely use ropes thicker than 9.8 anyways so my personal choice of ropes, as well as my partners, works well with the device. That said, I don't do much gym climbing, and when I do I use it in dynamic mode which functions just like an ATC. YMMV

Not sure why you referenced this review here, Rich, as it does not review the Alpine Up, just the Click Up. The Click Up looks great for gym climbers or single pitch sport climbers who never plan to rap - a good solution for very limited application. I think it was a missed opportunity not reviewing the Alpine Up.

Alex Rogers wrote:

Not sure why you referenced this review here, Rich, as it does not review the Alpine Up, just the Click Up. The Click Up looks great for gym climbers or single pitch sport climbers who never plan to rap - a good solution for very limited application. I think it was a missed opportunity not reviewing the Alpine Up.

I referenced it because the locking mechanism is identical to the UP.

In regard to Jim's question, I have used the CT workaround for rappelling, although with 8.5mm ropes it isn't needed.  It did make things a little smoother at the start of free-hanging rappels with a lot of rope weight, but it also twisted the ropes horribly and so is not a solution that is of any use to me.  With 60m of 8.5mm ropes hanging on the device, I have to feed the rope into it for the first  5-10m or so before it feeds on its own.   This can be done very smoothly if you use a hand-over-hand technique on the brake strand. For all less-specatucular rappels, the device is just fine on 8.5's.

eli poss wrote:

Sure, unless you want something that can rap, is assisted braking, and doesn't require you to learn a new technique to belay. In which case it is the only option. Just don't use it with really fat ropes.

not the only option, see the Mad Rock Lifeguard

Jim Titt wrote:

Except rappeling is not the greatest experience in the world with reasonably thick ropes unless you use the horrific system CT developed to reduce the friction (anyone actually ever used this?), "assisted" braking is available elsewhere and more reliably. Learning a new belay technique isn´t exactly difficult and you will have to do it with the Alpine UP anyway the first time you short-rope your partner since releasing the locked mode isn´t exactly standard practice with a conventional plate.

Having to choose ropes depending on the belay device is putting the cart before the horse, the decision on which rope to use is governed by many factors and either ones device should be able to cope with all the sizes we use OR you use a number of different devices. Expecting a climbing gym (or your partner) to provide a super-slick 9.2mm rope to suit your choice of device is unrealistic.

I'm not sure what device passes the criteria of being able to handle any rope, though. The GriGri2 certainly doesn't--I've come across gym topropes that were too thick for it quite frequently (at gyms which leave GriGris on the ropes, ironically).

There's nothing wrong with having gear that works together, such as a rope that works well with your belay devices. I certainly appreciate gear that's widely applicable (i.e. I haven't found a rope that my Sterling HollowBlock doesn't friction well on). But I've not yet used a belay device that works well with all ropes, or even as broad a range as the manufacturer claims their devices work with.

That said, who are these people using 10.5mm rope for sport climbing? It's not a problem I've run into.

rgold wrote:

UK Climbing just published a review (https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=9402) of assisted-braking devices in which the Click-Up came out as the best of the lot, which included both Grigris, the Smart, the Matik, and the Salewa Ergo, which appears to be a model cloned by BD for their ATC-Pilot.  These are subjective usage tests, without quantification (unexplained bar graphs notwithstanding), not the kind of rigorous standard-based testing you get from Jim Titt, and have nothing to say about the behavior of the devices in extreme circumstances. That said, this is a  rare user comparison of a whole bunch of devices, rather than the more common "I switched to Gadget X and it's awesome" type of review. 

I've noted before that my main reason for switching to the Click Up is that it feeds rope better than the GriGri2. People who have not used the Click Up have responded claiming that it must be because I'm using the GriGri2 wrong. But the review also notes that the Click Up is good for feeding rope, giving it the highest rating of any device for rope feeding, better than either GriGri. So at least I'm not the only crazy person who thinks the Click Up is easy to use.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I'm not sure what device passes the criteria of being able to handle any rope, though. The GriGri2 certainly doesn't--I've come across gym topropes that were too thick for it quite frequently (at gyms which leave GriGris on the ropes, ironically).

There's nothing wrong with having gear that works together, such as a rope that works well with your belay devices. I certainly appreciate gear that's widely applicable (i.e. I haven't found a rope that my Sterling HollowBlock doesn't friction well on). But I've not yet used a belay device that works well with all ropes, or even as broad a range as the manufacturer claims their devices work with.

That said, who are these people using 10.5mm rope for sport climbing? It's not a problem I've run into.

My ATC XP copes with ever rope I´ve ever tried, real thin ones I just add a karabiner or two. Which I why I carry it in preference to the Alpine Up on trad routes. 

Sport climbing it´s easier to just carry a couple of devices that will work well with whatever comes along rather than trying to make one device do everything as inevitably there will be something it doesn´t do particularly well. 

Jim Titt wrote:

My ATC XP copes with ever rope I´ve ever tried, real thin ones I just add a karabiner or two. Which I why I carry it in preference to the Alpine Up on trad routes. 

Sport climbing it´s easier to just carry a couple of devices that will work well with whatever comes along rather than trying to make one device do everything as inevitably there will be something it doesn´t do particularly well. 

Jim, what sort of carabiniers and how are you clipping them (with your ATC XP for extra friction)? 

One of my group has a really skinny alpine rope, slick as can be!

Thanks, Helen

Jim Titt wrote:

My ATC XP copes with ever rope I´ve ever tried, real thin ones I just add a karabiner or two. Which I why I carry it in preference to the Alpine Up on trad routes. 

Sport climbing it´s easier to just carry a couple of devices that will work well with whatever comes along rather than trying to make one device do everything as inevitably there will be something it doesn´t do particularly well. 

Jim,  Are you saying that you add an extra karabiner while belaying?  I think this is necessary to get adequate friction for even moderately thin single and slick ropes.  I asked black diamond about this and they seemed confused but said it would be ok if I wanted to.  

I have seen several people add an extra karabiner while rappelling but I have never seen anyone use two karabiners while belaying.  I think if you need more friction rappelling then you need more friction belaying.  The alpine up specs single ropes from 8.6 - 10.5 mm and from personal experience it works well with 8.9 mm ropes.  I am very concerned being belayed with an ATC and a single karabiner on the 8.9 mm single rope.

I believe it is likely that with two karabiners that the ATC would work adequately with my 8.9 rope; just no one uses two karabiners.

Old lady H wrote:

Jim, what sort of carabiniers and how are you clipping them (with your ATC XP for extra friction)? 

One of my group has a really skinny alpine rope, slick as can be!

Thanks, Helen

Just double (or triple) up on whatever HMS karabiner you normally use, they MUST all be clipped into the belay loop.

climber pat wrote:

Jim,  Are you saying that you add an extra karabiner while belaying?  I think this is necessary to get adequate friction for even moderately thin single and slick ropes.  I asked black diamond about this and they seemed confused but said it would be ok if I wanted to.  

I have seen several people add an extra karabiner while rappelling but I have never seen anyone use two karabiners while belaying.  I think if you need more friction rappelling then you need more friction belaying.  The alpine up specs single ropes from 8.6 - 10.5 mm and from personal experience it works well with 8.9 mm ropes.  I am very concerned being belayed with an ATC and a single karabiner on the 8.9 mm single rope.

I believe it is likely that with two karabiners that the ATC would work adequately with my 8.9 rope; just no one uses two karabiners.

I´ve no experience with a single 8.9mm rope (never climb on things that small) but tested single strands of double ropes for sure. I use extra karabiners with my 7.8mm ropes, things are getting pretty marginal if you don´t!

One of the big advantages of conventional plates is to be able to adjust the level of braking force they provide, either reducing it with a loose karabiner or increasing it with extra karabiners. Something the jamming style devices can´t do.

Jim Titt wrote:

I´ve no experience with a single 8.9mm rope (never climb on things that small) but tested single strands of double ropes for sure. I use extra karabiners with my 7.8mm ropes, things are getting pretty marginal if you don´t!

One of the big advantages of conventional plates is to be able to adjust the level of braking force they provide, either reducing it with a loose karabiner or increasing it with extra karabiners. Something the jamming style devices can´t do.

So, just to be totally clear, to add friction to an ATC XP device for belaying, add matching carabineers clipped exactly the same? 

Thanks! OLH

Jim Titt wrote:

I´ve no experience with a single 8.9mm rope (never climb on things that small) but tested single strands of double ropes for sure. I use extra karabiners with my 7.8mm ropes, things are getting pretty marginal if you don´t!

One of the big advantages of conventional plates is to be able to adjust the level of braking force they provide, either reducing it with a loose karabiner or increasing it with extra karabiners. Something the jamming style devices can´t do.

Thanks. I have been trying to understand your comments from other threads for quite a while and came to the conclusion that you must be using multiple karabiners while belaying.  Sadly, you might be the only one smart enough to use two karabiners for belaying. :)    I think some people are moving on to other device designs when they begin to think that the ATC is not working well enough.  Most do not ever worry about it.

climber pat wrote:

Thanks. I have been trying to understand your comments from other threads for quite a while and came to the conclusion that you must be using multiple karabiners while belaying.  Sadly, you might be the only one smart enough to use two karabiners for belaying. :)    I think some people are moving on to other device designs when they begin to think that the ATC is not working well enough.  Most do not ever worry about it.

I'm going to be playing with this some more, so I'll let you know.

I'll have an Up shortly, but I want this trick up my sleeve also. The ATC is hardly headed for retirement!

Best, OLH

Jim Titt wrote:

My ATC XP copes with ever rope I´ve ever tried, real thin ones I just add a karabiner or two. Which I why I carry it in preference to the Alpine Up on trad routes. 

Sport climbing it´s easier to just carry a couple of devices that will work well with whatever comes along rather than trying to make one device do everything as inevitably there will be something it doesn´t do particularly well. 

I meant of the assisted belay devices, but that's a good point, this is one reason to carry an ATC or similar.

I think we're agreeing about carrying multiple devices.

I've doubled carabiners on ATC-type devices when belaying with thin ropes for years.  Never had to go to three though...  

If you are doubling carabiners for rappelling but not for belaying, you really aren't thinking clearly.  But an absolutely minimal test is not the ordinary double-strand rappel, but rather a single strand rap.  If you need two carabiners for that, you need them for belaying as well.