Why aren't new friend cams more popular?

That extendable sling trick is interesting, although a bit suspicious looking. I don't think it affects the strength of the connection but I think you'd have to take care that the cam biner didn't get trapped and cause some funny leverage near an edge. I wonder if having the biner there spreads the force out on the thumb loop a bit and counteracts the thin dyneema pinch effect? My main issue with this trick though is that it sorta seems to defeat the purpose of the extendable sling, namely that you can avoid using a sling. This seems the same as putting a trad draw on the cam since you are using a quickdraw. Maybe if you clipped the loop with a spare biner you could avoid using up a sling? I know on my one cam that has this feature I don't extend it if I'm going to use a sling as well. 

Jumping off into a tangent but It brings to mind how I sometimes stick a biner through the masterpoint knot when I'm using one of those 8' dyneema loops in place of a cord for an anchor. Prevents the knot from welding after leaning back on it or an extended TR session. 

The main advantage of the extendable sling is being able to avoid cross loading a biner. If you're sticking a cam in a horizontal there are times it's pretty hard to avoid the biner from the cam being levered over an edge. An draw won't help with that. There are ways around it like girth hitching the thumb loop with an alpine draw but not fun to do in a strenuous placement.

20 kN wrote:

Most companies do not terminate the wire at the thumb loop. Actually, aside from the old CCH Aliens I cant think of a single model of cam off hand that does. The Wild Country Friends, TCUs, Master Cams and WC Zeros all use a similar gauge of wire as the BD C4s from what I can tell. I've held them side by side and I couldent tell upon visual inspection, although I dident exactly cut them open and measure the wire thickness. I have always wondered why BD has the problem with kinking wires with Dyneema slings on the C4 while WC does not despite the designs basically being identical. I dont think WC uses thicker wire.

Most of the cams you mentioned (those in bold) do terminate the wire at the thumb loop (the prominent bulge above the thumb loop is a dead giveaway). In fact, almost all single wire stem cams (TCUs are dual stem), including BD X4 are built like that. You can feel the 2 wire strands underneath the sheathe (notice how it's more flat than round) of the stem of a C4 pretty easily by twisting the stem.

WC friends/zeros have extendable dyneema slings and master cams/aliens have non-double wrapped dyneema slings. If those loops can be jacked up @ 3-4 KN like a C4, people would be reporting it.

The BD page isn't wrong, but it is somewhat misleading as the thumb loop of the C4 is more susceptible to kinking (like clipping a biner directly into the loop) than the thumb loops of all other single stem cams on the market. 

Does anyone know where the friends are made?   Not one of the 5 that I bought have a manufacturing location on them.  

reboot wrote:

Most of the cams you mentioned (those in bold) do terminate the wire at the thumb loop (the prominent bulge above the thumb loop is a dead giveaway). In fact, almost all single wire stem cams (TCUs are dual stem), including BD X4 are built like that. You can feel the 2 wire strands underneath the sheathe (notice how it's more flat than round) of the stem of a C4 pretty easily by twisting the stem.

WC friends/zeros have extendable dyneema slings and master cams/aliens have non-double wrapped dyneema slings. If those loops can be jacked up @ 3-4 KN like a C4, people would be reporting it.

The BD page isn't wrong, but it is somewhat misleading as the thumb loop of the C4 is more susceptible to kinking (like clipping a biner directly into the loop) than the thumb loops of all other single stem cams on the market. 

hmm I guess I was misinformed then. I might have to cut open a sample and see for myself.

My doubles are almost evenly split between C4's and the new friends.  The difference in weight is noticeable across a full rack, but unless you're counting grams it's not a huge point - if you are, chances are good you're going with BD ultralights anyway.  

The solid section of the trigger wire is shorter, and the swages are both smaller and tapered.  Consequently, they don't snag or bend nearly as much as my C4s do.  This is perhaps my favorite feature in contrast, but perhaps you're better at stuffing cams than I am and don't have this problem.

I could go either way on the extendable sling - the extension isn't long enough to replace a full draw, but I have used it to stick a better placement when alpine equalizing an anchor.  Despite the limited application of the extension, it's nice to have on the rare occasion.  No snagging/tangling/bulk problems as of yet.  Time will tell, but after a season on them I've yet to be convinced one way or the other.

Overall - I'd probably pick the new friends over C4s if replacing or buying new, especially for a first rack or general purpose climbing.  There are better options out there if you're filling a particular niche, but I do feel they are a refinement when contrasted with the base C4.

Midwest Will wrote:

Are you out of your mind ? you are going to put a piece of dyneema over an edge and possibly fall on it ?? WTF  please stay in the gym. 

for all you followers that cant shorten the sling with one hand . (sigh)  simply clip the biner to your harness .. then clip the cable loop of the cam to the biner. 

Terrible info.  Trolling?  

Because if you wanted European cams you'd be far better served by buying DMM - they and BD rule the cam market (excepting micro cams, which are a different animal entirely). They feel wonky in comparison. 

20 kN wrote:

hmm I guess I was misinformed then. I might have to cut open a sample and see for myself.

You shouldn't need to cut one open.  You can see the swages quite clearly on most non C4 cam.

Whereas on a BD C4 you can also see the dual cable termination.  If you look carefully.  See the cable on the yellow C4 left.

"Are you out of your mind ? you are going to put a piece of dyneema over an edge and possibly fall on it ?? WTF  please stay in the gym."

I don't think he said sharp edge.   Midwest Will, what do you do if the biner is set on a lip or edge?   You don't extend down so the biner is free and loose?

Great videos, thanks.  Not sure how they pertain to the issue.   Beth Rodden at 2:23 says, "Keep in mind that the sling or the stem over an edge will weaken the placement significantly."   This may be true.  What I envision is a deep horizontal-ish placement where the cam biner doesn't even make it out of the crack.  What do you do?   You totally chastised a person for their comment and I'd like to know what you think, other than "look for another placement."   Setting a sling to extend the placement seems like the only choice.  

Midwest Will, where do you climb?

The situation you are admonishing everyone for is absolutely unavoidable in many situations at many crags around the country/world. Sometimes there is no better placement, and the cam has to go in deep.

Also, could you point me towards the epidemic of failed dyneema slings caused by loading over an edge in a horizontal?

Well, both Rodden and the Totem guy encourage setting the cam as deep into the crack as possble (the Totem advice specifically while discussing horizontals).    So I guess you would rather place the lobes near the end of the crack, and risk having the cam walk/shift out altogether, in the interest of having the cam shaft be bending over the edge?  Rather than placing the cam deep into the crack where it might fit better and will not walk?   You say, Place a bigger cam, or find a different crack.   These might not be options.

Anyway, I see your point about a single piece of dyneema laid out on a sharp edge.   These extendable slings on cams would result in a single piece of dyneema.  But two considerations:   Not all edges are that sharp; in fact not many of them are.  And second, an alpine draw placed as the extension, will have redundancy against such a catastrophe because there would be four strands of sling.

Glad you avoid cams in horizontals.  You must be awesome.

"It's only redundant if it's knotted or cloved."

True, my bad.   So under most circumstances a sling over an edge does not have redundancy.    As for your other points, such as "You take what you can get" /  "What's better, some pro, or no pro?", this is point I am making as well.  If by placing a cam deeper in the crack (as can be dictated by circumstances), you end up with the stem fully swallowed, you have to use a sling over the edge.    

Again, not all edges are sharp.

Midwest Will wrote:

Are you out of your mind ? you are going to put a piece of dyneema over an edge and possibly fall on it ?? WTF  please stay in the gym. 

Sounds like you're the one who needs to stay in the gym.  If your only options are a sling over an edge or a biner over an edge, the sling over the edge is really your only option.  Many people have fallen on dyneema over an edge and I've never heard of a failure (obviously it is possible, but quite unlikley).  A Biner over an edge however will almost certainly fail.

There is no utility in black and white statements like "I avoid horizontal placements". The point is how you solve the issue as above when that is all you've got. Sling is WAY better than a biner on that spot.

Look Will, I am as much an expert as anyone on here on arguing with people on this site that in all likelihood agree 98% on the topic in question (after about 10 pages of bickering lol).

No one thinks a sling or anything over any edge is ideal. Same with biners or even cables. No one likes it. But sometimes you just gotta deal with it.

And everyone knows knotting and high loads cause trouble with static slings.

You made a statement that is reasonable from your perspective, others simply pointed out there was some nuance to solve in different situations. This probably has to do with their own experience with their own climbing.

Let it go.

Dylan B. wrote:

My guess is because they're not widely available in the U.S. With something like a cam, I want to handle one before I buy it. I don't know anyone who owns the new Friends, and I don't know any brick & mortar stores that carry them. With no opportunity to get my hands on one, I'm far less likely to buy one than a C4, Totem or Metolius cam, all of which I've used or handled extensively. Even Dragons, which are not that common, I've had a chance to play with. The new Friends? Nary a one.

Water Stone Outdoors at the New River Gorge carries them and can mail them to you for cheap.  They try to have a decent selection there.  Shameless plug, Water Stone needs all the business it can get!

Midwest Will wrote:

I try to avoid cams in horizontals.. 

Well that is a bit silly.  In some places horizontals are more common than vertical cracks.  There is no reason to avoid horizontals.  There is a good reason why we have flexible wire stems.

As far as some of your other comments like running dyneema over an edge...  I don't know where to begin.

Dyneema, or nylon for that matter, is fine over an edge. If the edge isn't very rough or sharp then it really doesn't matter. If the edge is very sharp or abrasive, pad the edge and try not to fall. Both of these cases are "proper" placements.

And, FWIW, dyneema is better to use over a sharp edge than nylon because it has better cutting resistance.

Try abandoning your rules for a little bit and learn about the pros and cons of different available options. You just might learn something