Vertically staggered anchors

A ring broke in Thailand, but thats Thailand.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:

A ring broke in Thailand, but thats Thailand.

Everything breaks in Thailand

Not Titanium.

Just sayin

It's not illogical at all.  If you are leading and one bolt fails, unless it is the first bolt, you have multiple bolts clipped which will keep you from hitting the ground.  In the anchor setup described if the first bolt fails and the second bolt is shock loaded and also fails there is nothing holding your rope to the rock and you could very easily die.  I don't think anybody is saying that these bolts would fail because of exceeding their strength rating.  What we are worrying about is manufacturing defects which would cause the bolt to fail at way below the strength rating.

One comment that nobody has raised is the benefit of having vertically spaced anchors when the rock quality does not permit good horizontal spacing. Fixe makes a great SS "Traditional Anchor" for $20 which is a vertical or offset vertical anchor setup, great for rapping, not so great for TR in my opinion (you could TR off of lockers straight into the rap ring, but people will be sketched by using the single 50 KN rap ring and do all sorts of crazy shit to avoid doing that, at least in the US). 

Twinboas wrote:

 but people will be sketched by using the single 50 KN rap ring and do all sorts of crazy shit to avoid doing that, at least in the US. 

It is my experience the a lot of people are very poor at risk analysis and/or understanding the physical parameters under which they operate. At Fremont Canyon there are excellent 3" steel posts, cemented into solid granite and welded to a dozen more. Any one of these posts are hell for stout and perfect for constructing a simple and safe anchor. The lengths people go with macrame anchor projects in an attempt to achieve textbook 3 point SERENE is staggering.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

I expect that on reflection you will work out your statement is therefore equally illogical. If a 15" fall on dynamic rope causes the next bolt to fail then the "multiple bolts" on a route have no chance whatsoever either (unless of course your local area is bolted closer than this).

Twinboas wrote:

One comment that nobody has raised is the benefit of having vertically spaced anchors when the rock quality does not permit good horizontal spacing. Fixe makes a great SS "Traditional Anchor" for $20 which is a vertical or offset vertical anchor setup, great for rapping, not so great for TR in my opinion (you could TR off of lockers straight into the rap ring, but people will be sketched by using the single 50 KN rap ring and do all sorts of crazy shit to avoid doing that, at least in the US). 

It was mentioned on the first page as one of the major benefits ands extensively discussed in the 2015 thread on exactly the same theme which is basically a mirror image of this thread and probably a previous one as well. 

Jim Titt wrote:

It was mentioned on the first page as one of the major benefits ands extensively discussed in the 2015 thread on exactly the same theme which is basically a mirror image of this thread and probably a previous one as well. 

I just wanted people to share new stories of people doing stupid things to avoid using perfectly good anchors. I'm sure that we have reached new levels of stupidity since 2015. 

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

It's not illogical at all.  If you are leading and one bolt fails, unless it is the first bolt, you have multiple bolts clipped which will keep you from hitting the ground....  

No you don't.  On most sport routes you could deck if any of the first 4 bolts fail, if you fall while clipping, it's probably 6 bolts up or higher on most routes before you wouldn't deck if the bolt failed.  We trust our lives to a single bolt holding huge falls all the time, so yes, the worry about taking a 15" fall on a single bolt (with a dynamic rope) is completely illogical.

Twinboas wrote:

I just wanted people to share new stories of people doing stupid things to avoid using perfectly good anchors. I'm sure that we have reached new levels of stupidity since 2015. 

Both as a nation and as a species

Ken Noyce wrote:

No you don't.  On most sport routes you could deck if any of the first 4 bolts fail, if you fall while clipping, it's probably 6 bolts up or higher on most routes before you wouldn't deck if the bolt failed.  We trust our lives to a single bolt holding huge falls all the time, so yes, the worry about taking a 15" fall on a single bolt (with a dynamic rope) is completely illogical.

Especially with the lax belay you see these days that gets labelled "soft catch."

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

It's not illogical at all.  If you are leading and one bolt fails, unless it is the first bolt, you have multiple bolts clipped which will keep you from hitting the ground.  In the anchor setup described if the first bolt fails and the second bolt is shock loaded and also fails there is nothing holding your rope to the rock and you could very easily die.  I don't think anybody is saying that these bolts would fail because of exceeding their strength rating.  What we are worrying about is manufacturing defects which would cause the bolt to fail at way below the strength rating.

LOL. Is this a troll? Are you serious?

eli poss wrote:

If placed correctly, the top bolt isn't going to fail. And if it does, a 6 inch fall isn't going to do jack shit. Oh and also, people have "always" equalized anchors. 

Sorry Eli, wrong again.  Any bolt, even perfectly placed, is only one variable in the equation.  The integrity of the rock is a huge and often hidden variable.  I've been surprised so many times!   I've even seen bolts sticking out out of soft rock because the rock itself eroded away from a quick-link blowing in the wind. 

Over time, bolts are subjected to freeze-thaw, unintentional climber abuse, normal wear and (my favorite) corrosion, which has a huge and not-well-understood collection of variables.   Did I ever tell you about the woman who was rappelling and cleaning a route when one of her anchor-bolts came spinning down the rope?  Wanna bet she was glad the FA put in two anchor bolts?

So to say the bolt isn't going to fail tomorrow is probably okay.  And maybe okay in 5 years. But what about 10?  20?   50?  

John Byrnes wrote:

Sorry Eli, wrong again.  Any bolt, even perfectly placed, is only one variable in the equation.  The integrity of the rock is a huge and often hidden variable.  I've been surprised so many times!   I've even seen bolts sticking out out of soft rock because the rock itself eroded away from a quick-link blowing in the wind. 

Over time, bolts are subjected to freeze-thaw, unintentional climber abuse, normal wear and (my favorite) corrosion, which has a huge and not-well-understood collection of variables.   Did I ever tell you about the woman who was rappelling and cleaning a route when one of her anchor-bolts came spinning down the rope?  Wanna bet she was glad the FA put in two anchor bolts?

So to say the bolt isn't going to fail tomorrow is probably okay.  And maybe okay in 5 years. But what about 10?  20?   50?  

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant when I said placed correctly. To me, this means actually placing the bolt correct but also choosing an appropriate metal for the environment and placing it in the least choosy part of the rock as possible. Obviously if you're really chossaneering then any bolt could rip off a chunk of rock but I think it should go without saying that any protection is suspect in that situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that people go out an place single bolt anchors. Please, for the love of god, don't place a single bolt anchor. I'm just saying that a well placed bolt that meets the above criteria probably isn't going to fail. And even if it does, a 5" fall isn't going to shockload the lower bolt to failure. 

n00b wrote:

LOL. Is this a troll? Are you serious?

I lived in the Valley in the 1970's when a climber bought about 500 Rawl split shafts for use in putting up routes.  This climber ended up selling a lot of these bolts to other climbers in the Valley.  Unfortunately, there was a defect in manufacturing the bolts.  They started breaking on routes all over the Valley.  I broke one just by flipping the rope from side to side.  My partner broke one of the bolts just by leaning back at the belay.  Modern bolts, if properly manufactured and installed, don't break.  But, there are instances, as described above, where manufacturing defects cause bolts to break at way below their rated strength.  Sure, it doesn't make sense to have a backup bolt for each protection bolt, but at anchors which use two bolts it just makes sense to me to use a setup where redundancy is optimized.

eli poss wrote:

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant when I said placed correctly. To me, this means actually placing the bolt correct but also choosing an appropriate metal for the environment and placing it in the least choosy part of the rock as possible. Obviously if you're really chossaneering then any bolt could rip off a chunk of rock but I think it should go without saying that any protection is suspect in that situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that people go out an place single bolt anchors. Please, for the love of god, don't place a single bolt anchor. I'm just saying that a well placed bolt that meets the above criteria probably isn't going to fail. And even if it does, a 5" fall isn't going to shockload the lower bolt to failure. 

You still don't get it, do you?    You constantly post crap on topics you barely know anything about,  and when someone calls you on it, you equivocate.    

Oh well, I should know better than to try to teach a pig to sing.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

I lived in the Valley in the 1970's when a climber bought about 500 Rawl split shafts for use in putting up routes.  This climber ended up selling a lot of these bolts to other climbers in the Valley.  Unfortunately, there was a defect in manufacturing the bolts.  They started breaking on routes all over the Valley.  I broke one just by flipping the rope from side to side.  My partner broke one of the bolts just by leaning back at the belay.  Modern bolts, if properly manufactured and installed, don't break.  But, there are instances, as described above, where manufacturing defects cause bolts to break at way below their rated strength.  Sure, it doesn't make sense to have a backup bolt for each protection bolt, but at anchors which use two bolts it just makes sense to me to use a setup where redundancy is optimized.

Sure, poorly place bolts or bolts in bad rock can fail. But that's not the silliness you posted in your prior comment.

The idea that if you're leading up and the second bolt fails, the first will catch you before you deck is preposterous for 99% of sport routes I've ever seen. In many cases, even if it's the third bolt that fails, and you're counting on the second to catch you, it's going to be a close call. 

And the idea that if you don't equalize the two bolts at an anchor and one fails, the second is more likely to fail because it's "shock loaded" from a 2" drop is also dubious. 

n00b wrote:

The idea that if you're leading up and the second bolt fails, the first will catch you before you deck is preposterous for 99% of sport routes I've ever seen. In many cases, even if it's the third bolt that fails, and you're counting on the second to catch you, it's going to be a close call. 

This is true and more broadly than this.  It's actually true of MOST sport routes until the 5th bolt!

John Byrnes wrote:

You still don't get it, do you?    You constantly post crap on topics you barely know anything about,  and when someone calls you on it, you equivocate.    

Oh well, I should know better than to try to teach a pig to sing.

Jesus christ dude, when are you going to stop being a dick. A bolt that otherwise wouldn't fail isn't going to fail because of a 6 inch shockload. Whats the fall factor of a 6 in fall onto a top rope that's probably at least 40 feet? If you're that worried about it then you should probably stick to bouldering.