Women and Climbing: Black Diamond, would you fix this?

Another +1 for Misty Mountain here.  They are the only company I've found where I can fit into both the men's and women's sizing.  With most other companies, the men's harness have the wrong waist/hips ratio and so I can't fit into a single size.  I can't wear any of Black Diamond or Arcteryx's harnesses because the ratios are wrong for me on both the men's and women's sizing.  However, Misty will be happy to custom combine 2 sizes if needed!  There are lots of comfy harnesses out there such as the Misty mountain titan and/or cadillac, which do come in XS.  Give them a try!

Momoface wrote:

Ha! Ok, maybe one more burn session. Maybe. :P 

PM sent.

Eric wrote:

Nailed it.  One harness made by one company does not fit very small people = fewer women setters.  

I was responding more to the attitude in this thread.

NegativeK wrote:

I was responding more to the attitude in this thread.

Ok, I'll bite. What attitude? The OP has a complaint, others suggested alternatives and gave solid advice. It was also pointed out how no company, be it climbing gear, car manufacturers, ski builders, can be everyone's perfect product every time. I, personally, would expect the same response had the OP not been a lady and was instead a dude complaining how the harness they want doesn't fit them. The OP projected a narrative on the message she thinks BD must be sending by not making a harness perfect for her, and she was called out on that.

There was recently a thread on women in routesetting, I recommend digging that up if you want to see a qualified discussion on that topic. This thread isn't one of them.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

If she put as much time into climbing as she does posting here, she'd surely be sending 5.13 right now.

I'm sure she can since she is the one setting 5.13s in the gym.

Wouldn't have happened under Yvon (literally--Chouinard Equipment made a custom Bod harness for my wife).

Until Puccio can take Burchey in an honest fight, Black Diamond doesn't owe anybody anything!

Simply put these are businesses and are there to make money. If the numbers don't add up to make money doing something they won't do it.

I have small hands and trust me I understand frustration with skiing and trying to find something that will fit me, even like -30 degree gloves in a small size my hands will get cold from teh gaps at the finger tips. I normally end up with kids gloves half the time.

Old lady H wrote:

All, I also sent an email with the short version to Black Diamond. 

I received a reply today. Basically "we don't sell enough of these to care", put nicely of course. I do understand.

Nonetheless, I've asked for a public reply, and urged them to consider being a leader in this. 

We'll see, eh?

Best all, Helen

There is a difference between "this particular company doesn't want to enter this particular market" and "nobody makes comfortable harnesses for smaller women". It isn't like there is a lack of choice... I'm on a smaller side. I set routes. I have a comfortable harness. It is not a BD.

It would be silly of me to demand that Lane Bryant make clothes that fit me. They have a different target customer. And I have a choice of buying from companies that make clothes in my size.

Same for other things like backpacks, etc. I really wanted an Osprey pack. When I was looking for a new pack, I saw an Osprey pack that opened with a U-shaped zipper, like a duffel bag, and thought it would have been a perfect pack for me. But they don't make this particular type of packs  in my size. So now I have a Deuter pack that has all the features I loved in an Osprey pack, AND it fits me. As far as I'm concerned, it is Osprey's loss, but I don't care, because I have what i need. If some day Osprey makes a pack in my size with the particular features that I want, they might get my business. Osprey makes other packs that fit small women-- in fact, I have a laptop backpack that Osprey makes, and it is really good.

Shrug...

No company can make everything for everyone in every size, it is just not possible. Not even the giant corporations can afford to be so diversified, and climbing gear manufacturers, even the big-name climbing gear manufacturers, are still a small fish, when it comes to size of the business.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Until Puccio can take Burchey in an honest fight, Black Diamond doesn't owe anybody anything!

An honest fight require somewhat matched opponents. I can only envision a severe beat down if Puccio ever got pissed off enough.  

reboot wrote:

An honest fight require somewhat matched opponents. I can only envision a severe beat down if Puccio ever got pissed off enough.  

I'm willing to have Burchey whipped if that's what it takes. 

The Misty Mountain Cadillac comes in an Extra Small (24"--26")

The Cadillac is the most comfortable harness I've ever worn.

I'm a 6'0" tall 185lb guy and Black Diamond harnesses don't fit me right either.  Petzl seems to fit me best of what I've tried, But from what I've heard/seen, once you go Misty Mountain you will never go back. Assuming that every harness should be available in every size and body type seems a little strange to me, especially for a company like Black Diamond that (in general) is a bang for the buck brand. (Most of their stuff isn't the best in class, but is the best in price range)

I think the main point is that XS isn't offered for many good harnesses. And what companies consider small vs the size of a small person are two different things. This extends beyond climbing and to clothing in general though.

jgfox wrote:

I'm sure she can since she is the one setting 5.13s in the gym.

Setting a 5.13 =/= climbing a 5.13

The problem may stem from the physics of being a smaller size.  They might decide not to make XS to not compromise the intent of the harness.

Often the XS a company makes has fewer or smaller gear loops from the other sizes they make due to space constraints.  I wanted a harness with a lot of racking space/loops.  I purchased a Metolius Safe Tech, but the XS has only 2 gear loops instead of 4.  I purchased a Yates Astroman harness, but the XS only has 5 tiny loops instead of 7.  Even my Misty Mountain Finesse has much smaller gear loops than those of other sizes.  Why would they do this to small people?  Probably because the waistband doesn't have as much room on it.  I then purchased a Wild Country Women's Syncro harness for women in size S, which stacks the loops, but they don't have an XS, and it has enough gear loops but the S is bit loose. 

Add to the fact that I'm super short, the gear hangs down to my feet when clipped to my harness, so I purchased a Metolius Big wall Gear sling backpack hoping it would solve my space issues, and let the gear hang down a bit higher so I'm not stepping on it.  Unfortunately the chest strap rides up and chokes me when I'm climbing.  Maybe because of these issues super short/therefore less circumference folks like kids stick to sport climbing and don't make harnesses such as the Big Gun in smaller sizes.

PRRose wrote:

Wouldn't have happened under Yvon (literally--Chouinard Equipment made a custom Bod harness for my wife).

Hi, Pete. Your wife probably requested a custom harness for herself, rather than demanding that BD begin manufacturing a new size to fit her climbing friends.  

Sam Stephens wrote:

Call Misty Mountain. They'll be happy to custom build whatever you need and you won't look back.

Helen, while I totally get that you'd like Black Diamond to make this particular harness smaller. Their response was fair and to the point. The harness is made for lots of hanging and that area of climbing seems to be mostly made up of men. The magical thing about Black Diamond, and most companies, is that they want to make money so if their hear from a lot of women that they need a big wall harness in a smaller size, they will start to make them. They are happy to have more things to sell to make money.

Nick Sweeney wrote:

Another great clickbait title by Helen! Nice!

Hi all. Nick, I edited the title.

Everyone else, no, I don't expect BD to crank up a factory run merely because someone is female, or lose money, or are trying to keep women out of aspects of climbing, or any other of that horse hockey.

30" waist is not a small in women's sizes, only in men's. 30" actually is on the high end of medium to large in women's sizes.

With the way this harness is marketed, and, more importantly, with the user groups giving it high ratings on BDs website, they have a great opportunity, as I see it, to be proactive and include more women in their sizing. 

I'm in a university gym, full of active college age adults, and, honestly, there are plenty of fit guys in this age group who don't have 30" waists either.

The sizing is outdated. Why not ask a company with a product you like to consider moving into the current millennium and serve a potential customer base that could grow rapidly?

Best, Helen

While we're on the topic:  

1) Metolius WTF is up with your rated harness back leg loop attachments - climber needing to poop or pee with a vagina en route are going to have to get very unsafe wearing this harness.  

2) All makers of gear sling / chest harness contraptions - please mind the girls.  Why does the chest strap have to be nipple level, it should lift and support.!