Micronut placements?

Optimistic wrote:

Just a little comment on micros, because they have such a tiny surface area, they can be more difficult to assess than bigger pro. Doing some body weight practice testing right on the ground (just clip a sling to it and stick your foot in the sling) might give you a better sense of what works and doesn't. The classic issue is that the micro is snagged on a crystal that holds the piece under a light tug but cuts right through the piece or shatters under a bigger load. Maximum contact is critical with a micro.

This is fantastic information and a good reminder for me. Thank you. The micro nuts were the latest addition to my rack such that I never got around to weighting them and bounce testing them on the ground. All I did was a bit of placing them. That's something I will get right on. 

Helen, 

Some things to think about and practice. Firstly with your ground practice placement. Always carry your nut tool with you with a large hex, or medium sized rock to act as a hammer on the back side of the nut tool to get hard set, weighted, or stuck passive pieces out. Also, you are looking for maximum contact of the surfaces of the nut to the rock. Not just the leading edges of the nut meeting the constriction. And like rgold and others mentioned, please angle your nuts or other rock pro out from the wall to resist a somewhat outward and downward pull. So for example, on a completely vertical wall, the rock pro should be angle approximately 45 degrees out from the wall. In addition, like user Optimistic mentioned, I highly recommend carrying a carabiner and sling of different lengths, or etrier to attach to your practice settings, stepping a foot in it, weighting it, then bounce testing it. This was a crucial part of my ground placement practice that not only helped me trust my placements but helps you understand what will hold and what will not. I just never got around to trying it with the micro nuts. That will be rectified soon. 

anotherclimber wrote:

This is fantastic information and a good reminder for me. Thank you. The micro nuts were the latest addition to my rack such that I never got around to weighting them and bounce testing them on the ground. All I did was a bit of placing them. That's something I will get right on. 

Helen, 

Some things to think about and practice. Firstly with your ground practice placement. Always carry your nut tool with you with a large hex, or medium sized rock to act as a hammer on the back side of the nut tool to get hard set, weighted, or stuck passive pieces out. Also, you are looking for maximum contact of the surfaces of the nut to the rock. Not just the leading edges of the nut meeting the constriction. And like rgold and others mentioned, please angle your nuts or other rock pro out from the wall to resist a somewhat outward and downward pull. So for example, on a completely vertical wall, the rock pro should be angle approximately 45 degrees out from the wall. In addition, like user Optimistic mentioned, I highly recommend carrying a carabiner and sling of different lengths, or etrier to attach to your practice settings, stepping a foot in it, weighting it, then bounce testing it. This was a crucial part of my ground placement practice that not only helped me trust my placements but helps you understand what will hold and what will not. I just never got around to trying it with the micro nuts. That will be rectified soon. 

Hey, so look upthread at the single photo I posted, that's headed more the right direction, I think, but you folks are the ones to say!

When I was playing with the micros, it was just in between belaying my climbers, I had all my stuff, just not right on the harness, and lazy butt didn't feel like walking fifteen feet to get the nut tool, etc.

Rgold, when you have time, the follow-up to your post above will be great.

All, the three sets I just bought, micros, brassies, and BD nut set, came on just two remarkably ancient biners, which is horrible to work with. I'm thinking about 5 biners, any recommendation on that, since I will have to buy new?

Thanks! I'm planning on tieing an extra prussik (got the cord laying around) that I can throw in the bike basket with these, and get little bits of practice in (5-15 mins.) on my bike commute. :-)

Best, Helen

FWIW, I'm hitting within one on the regular sizes (meaning I get it on the second try), so far, although I've not placed many at all. The tinies are a lot harder to gauge, but that will come pretty quickly, I think.

I have one biner for micros and one for medium and above. Oval biners make it easier to slot one nut in, give it a tug and have the others fall away from the gate opening as you uncip. For standard size nuts this helps more, micros are so light and wires small that a little offset D works too (I use a camp nano sometimes).

Lots of good advice in here. One thing I would add is that even on easier routes you can get creative  with micro nuts where the climbing is easier to save your larger pieces for sections of harder climbing later on. I use nuts around well set chocks in offwidths pretty frequently.

Micro........

climbing friend,

do not trust anyone with small nuts.

Some people, including me, totally love keylock biners for nuts. Other people hate them. I think there's about 7 threads covering the finer points of that debate.

Optimistic wrote:

Some people, including me, totally love keylock biners for nuts. Other people hate them. I think there's about 7 threads covering the finer points of that debate.

Blatant attempted nut to biner thread shift. 

;)

John Barritt wrote:

Blatant attempted nut to biner thread shift. 

;)

I'm innocent! The OP asked! How could I, in good conscience, refuse an opportunity for further bloviation?

John Barritt wrote:

Micro........

Those aren't micro.  They're just small.  In good rock I'd trust them to hold a fall.

frank minunni wrote:

Those aren't micro.  They're just small.  In good rock I'd trust them to hold a fall.

The #1 & #2 only hold 2kn. The #3 holds 5 kn.

Liiitttle nuts...

Biiigger nuts...

And three+ generations of pocket change back at ya, Mr. Barritt!

To be honest I´d leave all the top photo ones at home or sell them on, I certainly wouldn´t carry them unless I was planning on something specific (and scary). The three smallest in the lower photo are most likely only to function as moral support, I wouldn´t expect them to reliably keep me off the ground.

Jim Titt wrote:

To be honest I´d leave all the top photo ones at home or sell them on, I certainly wouldn´t carry them unless I was planning on something specific (and scary). The three smallest in the lower photo are most likely only to function as moral support, I wouldn´t expect them to reliably keep me off the ground.

They may not keep you off the ground, but they often can hold in the larger piece that will.

Most of the brassies on the right are Metolius Astro nuts "free set". 

From right to left

first, third, forth, sixth and seventh

climbing friend,

toward which side are you letting them dangle?

rocknice2 wrote:

The #1 & #2 only hold 2kn. The #3 holds 5 kn.

Fortunately I only weigh 1kn..........;)

Nick Drake wrote:

I have one biner for micros and one for medium and above. Oval biners make it easier to slot one nut in, give it a tug and have the others fall away from the gate opening as you uncip. For standard size nuts this helps more, micros are so light and wires small that a little offset D works too (I use a camp nano sometimes).

Lots of good advice in here. One thing I would add is that even on easier routes you can get creative  with micro nuts where the climbing is easier to save your larger pieces for sections of harder climbing later on. I use nuts around well set chocks in offwidths pretty frequently.

I only have a small amount of stuff right now. My biners are some positrons, and some rocklocks, that's it. Also regular draws and a nice pair of draws with steel lockers, to be pressed into use when setting up top ropes.

I'm thinking to buy two ovals (I have none now, except the steel, not taking those apart), two (what???) that I can use opposed on my ATC for more friction belaying big guys, and one (what??) that will clip into the grigri I use when setting routes in the gym, with the bit on the narrow end to keep it oriented correctly. Stupid grigri invariably loads itself right on the carabiner gate, if I climb around a little and unweight it. Not a huge risk, but still...

Thanks! Still pertinent to this thread. Gotta rack it somehow, so I can get what I want quickly and easily.

Best, H.

Can't afford all this, or any, really, but mother's day is jussst around the corner!

Jim Titt wrote:

To be honest I´d leave all the top photo ones at home or sell them on, I certainly wouldn´t carry them unless I was planning on something specific (and scary). The three smallest in the lower photo are most likely only to function as moral support, I wouldn´t expect them to reliably keep me off the ground.

Why would you do that?  Those small nuts, especially the brass nuts can be great.  In the Gunks it was typical to place a couple or three or four in a nest and go from there.  I've fallen on RPs lots of times.  And when nothing else works, they're great to have...And they sure don't weight much.

frank minunni wrote:

Why would you do that?  Those small nuts, especially the brass nuts can be great.  In the Gunks it was typical to place a couple or three or four in a nest and go from there.  I've fallen on RPs lots of times.  And when nothing else works, they're great to have...And they sure don't weight much.

I´m well aware of what small nut´s and RP´s can do, I´ve been climbing trad for 50 years. My answer was in the context of a beginners forum to someone who´s never placed a nut in anger, never lead a trad route and struggles on 5.6. Advising her to start learning to place protection by building nests of micro-nuts, placing opposed pieces used tensioned Garda hitches and so on is completely bonkers. Particularly when it seems at least part of her circle of acquantances appear to be less than competent to give her reliable advice on the basics of climbing safety and gear placements.

Have to go with Jim on this one, it's really not a beginners topic, but rather one for intermediate climbers with some reasonable initial yardage under their belt.