Climber takes a whip, has a close call....and, a newish belayer

ChossKing wrote:

Again the bottom line: this guy sucks at placing gear and took an unnecessarily big fall on a 5.7. 

So apparently this was a false statement:

ChossKing  Apr 1, 2017                                    

unfollowing this

Marc801 wrote:

So apparently this was a false statement:

ChossKing  Apr 1, 2017                                    

unfollowing this

It's hard to stop looking, like a grisly traffic accident. Rubberneckers! Now re-following.

Old lady H wrote:

Respectfully, truly, where would you have had me stand? Fifteen feet back, and be pulled up and into my free falling climber? On the ground in front of the two foot block and be pulled knee caps first across that block, into the rock, then up? Directly in front of the 8' column, going six feet up while 195 pounds went to 3 feet off the ground? Off to the left, and be pulled into/up/across the 8' column, again, with 195 pounds coming down, and, our rope ends are now crossed (his first pro is on the right)?

Yours is an opinion I value, so....

Best, Helen

I'd have stood in front of the block, as opposite the first piece as possible, and with one foot on the block. Potentially even leaning on the column to the right. That gives you a brace to push against with your foot and also allows you to fall backwards into the catch a little (given the weight difference, I think that would be fine). And if you get pulled up you can put both feet out and "run" up the route's column a little instead of smashing into it. You may also have been able to build an anchor on or just around the column to the right of the step, though that's hard to say without seeing the rock.

Just my two cents.

Old lady H wrote:

In this particular case, I'm glad I wasn't anchored. His fall would have been shortened by 4-5 feet at most, possibly still in range of hitting me, if I am now out on the ground somewhere. He's also still in range of the 8-9 foot pillar, on a fall that was no longer soft. Or, if he cleared it, what would that pendulum swing have done then? And, with a shortened leg?

You're not viewing everyone's advice through the right lens. They are giving you advice that can be applied generally, you're choosing to disregard it because of the specifics of how this fall happened to play out this one time. If the situation had changed at all, for example if your partner had climbed another foot or two higher before he fell, he would have decked and your slightly softer catch would have just been him on the ground. 

I have no no idea what you are talking about in terms of a pendulum. Are you referring to a swing in towards the rock because he kicked away from the rock as he fell? This route doesn't appear to wander, aren't all the placements in a vertical line?

Unless I'm way off about the nature of the route to wander side to side, him not hitting you on the way down was sheer luck, nothing more.

You all still discoursing on this? I don't think there are absolutes in this game. Stand here stand there or not. We all need to study and think about our game as it is being played and goes on. That is what OLH is doing by putting it on MP, and I think it's commendable. We all need to learn everything we can, then practice practice practice. Once you have it so you can do it brainless, you still have to keep the brain engaged and not get complacent. That's why gear climbing is so much more engaging than clipping bolts. That's also why it is a more serious endevor. 

Had to laugh at this "hucking their meat off trad climb in non-green light falling situation"....and say that one component of gear leading that isn't part of most leaders game and I have not seen discussed yet on this thread is downclimbing to a rest. Our natural inclination when leading is to bull on through when it gets hard. Young climbers in particular think "just climb till I fall", but stepping down a few steps and tossing in a back up piece or 2 while you catch yer breath on a big stance may be all that is needed to avert a tragedy or get the send with no hangs. Something to keep it in mind. 

Here's something to buzz about, what happened and why: http://www.rockandice.com/climbing/epics/luck-of-the-desert-walking-away-from-a-40-foot-groundfall

PS, LOL, thanks Alex!

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

do not utilize the ground anchor, it is stupid, unless the climber they fat outweigh you by 50+ pounds, and even then it may not be necessary. Instead you are climbing with perhaps more competent leader who is able to place more and better gear and/or back off if they may be hucking their meat off trad climb in non-green light falling situation... or at least who does not "running it out" and pulling piece at same time on the eazzzy grade climbing rocks, yes?

@Frank, Marc, Choss, I'm guessing my willingness/proclivity for throwing myself under the MP bus wheels contributes to the carnage entertainment factor. Maybe you guys should pony up, come to Boise, and give me lessons, eh? 

@Matthias, yeah, that'd be pretty good, and I have done the foot swing to the wall thing. I'm pretty confident I couldn't run up a whole pitch like that clip, though!

@Matt, the climber somehow swung out from the cliff, not a huge pendulum, but a pendulum nonetheless. If they had fallen straight down, this would have been a very different story.

@Billcoe, at the University gym I go to, they encourage down climbing. If people never see it, they just don't even think to try, or practice.

@Aleks...Well. If anyone knows meat (but certainly not the hucking of), it would be you, most awesome climbing friend.

Thanks, all. At least there's a ton of information and back and forth in here, for others to learn from. 

Best, Helen

Edit to add: wow! Thanks for the story, too, Billcoe.

Many decades ago (1970's??) when I lived in Oregon, a woman survived a skydive where no parachute opened. Apparently it was soggy/boggy/muddy enough in the Williamette valley field she landed in, that it totally cushioned the fall, and she was relatively unharmed.

Old lady H wrote:

@Matt, the climber somehow swung out from the cliff, not a huge pendulum, but a pendulum nonetheless.

This happens far more frequently than you seem to think. It's not a pendulum. I've often pushed off a little on falls to keep from hitting things with my feet. Expect it in most falls.

Thread is plenty long enough already, so I'll try to make this brief.  I've read this whole thread closely, looked at pics, etc.  First of all, OLH, most of what went wrong is not on you.  Second, again directed at OLH, if you still think you made the right choice by standing on the block, then you're missing something. 

Bottom line is that next time you're in a situation like that, you should be watching your climber like a hawk, not going by the feel of the rope.

Cheers,

GO

GabeO wrote:

Thread is plenty long enough already, so I'll try to make this brief.  I've read this whole thread closely, looked at pics, etc.  First of all, OLH, most of what went wrong is not on you.  Second, again directed at OLH, if you still think you made the right choice by standing on the block, then you're missing something. 

Bottom line is that next time you're in a situation like that, you should be watching your climber like a hawk, not going by the feel of the rope.

Cheers,

GO

I agree with you, except on the topic of her position belaying. Normally I would advocate for standing on the ground but 20/20 hindsight tells me that her being on the column may well have prevented her climber from decking. Her climber was not very far from the ground and if she had been on the ground there would have been more rope available to stretch. It would have also caused a stronger horizontal pull on her, and we all know it is easier to resist a vertical pull than a horizontal pull. Being a lighter belayer, she would have been pulled an extra foot or two horizontally in towards the wall. This could potentially have added enough slack/stretch for her climber to deck rather than experiencing a near miss. 

OLH's inexperienced judgement drove her to make a choice that potentially saved her partner's life. A good choice, but for the wrong reasons. 

GabeO wrote:

Thread is plenty long enough already, so I'll try to make this brief.  I've read this whole thread closely, looked at pics, etc.  First of all, OLH, most of what went wrong is not on you.  Second, again directed at OLH, if you still think you made the right choice by standing on the block, then you're missing something. 

Bottom line is that next time you're in a situation like that, you should be watching your climber like a hawk, not going by the feel of the rope.

Cheers,

GO

Yup.

Greg D wrote

Just anchor with the dynamic rope, a clove hitch and a bit of slack.  You just might save your partner some day.  

Since my next order of business is teaching the Old Dog some new tricks, I assume this means build a gear anchor, clove into that and...tie in to my end?

Thanks!

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

Since my next order of business is teaching the Old Dog some new tricks, I assume this means build a gear anchor, clove into that and...tie in to my end?

Thanks!

Best, Helen

Yes. Do know that going about it this way the load will go to the tie in points on your harness. It won't be a comfy catch for you. There's also ways to attach the rope to your belay loop so upward force just goes through it.

Old lady H wrote:

Since my next order of business is teaching the Old Dog some new tricks, I assume this means build a gear anchor, clove into that and...tie in to my end?

Thanks!

Best, Helen

It could be an anchor with the rope around a tree, a sling around a tree or large boulder, etc. Doesn't have to involve cams or nuts, depending on what's available. You're tied into the rope as normal, then you clove hitch to a carabiner at the anchor. Adjust length of rope from you to anchor as needed.

What was the point of this thread?  Every response was shot down with a "I'm right, you're wrong" type of attitude, almost in a condescending way.

I outweigh my most trusted partner by 55 lbs. He get's pulled up quit often, he stays prepared for this.  If there's ground fall/ledge potential then he's anchored as the general consensus of this thread seems to be, but for some reason the "newish belayer" knows better?  

I recently belayed at a youth climbing competition and there was a 5 year old at about 3.5'. He climbed a 5.10D on completely overhung territory. Flashed it! I'm sure he went on and climbed even harder ones. Later, a kid not much taller absolutely crushed a 5.11D. I climbed the routes after the gym and they fair (if not a little stiff) as far as gym grades go.  It was then I realized that height, strength, ect is just an excuse.  How much belay experience do you have if you can't climb indoor 5.7?  A 5.7 indoor is typically a jug fest, how stiff can it really be? Not that I think a belay cert is needed, I lead climb at my gym without one but I think it speaks to where you are as a climber and you should probably listen to the advice the rest of the community is trying to give you.

Do I even have to mention the poorly structured paragraphs of run on sentences and unnecessary commas?

Keep a line of sight of your leader and be ready. And vise versa, stay vocal with your belayer.  I once took a 20' - 25' onto a ledge 60' up out of sight of my belayer.  Just enough rope stretch to land on my two feet comfortably.  I should have gave him the good ole' "watch me" and maybe I would of beeen caught! just glad I I didn't get hurt! Had it been my 100 lbs trusted partner, he would definitely of needed to be anchored. Oh but that can lead to a harder catch? I would take a hard catch over a deck any day!

This thread is just missing one thing, a good drawing.

Ryan U. wrote:

What was the point of this thread?  Every response was shot down with a "I'm right, you're wrong" type of attitude, almost in a condescending way.

I outweigh my most trusted partner by 55 lbs. He get's pulled up quit often, he stays prepared for this.  If there's ground fall/ledge potential then he's anchored as the general consensus of this thread seems to be, but for some reason the "newish belayer" knows better?  

I recently belayed at a youth climbing competition and there was a 5 year old at about 3.5'. He climbed a 5.10D on completely overhung territory. Flashed it! I'm sure he went on and climbed even harder ones. Later, a kid not much taller absolutely crushed a 5.11D. I climbed the routes after the gym and they fair (if not a little stiff) as far as gym grades go.  It was then I realized that height, strength, ect is just an excuse.  How much belay experience do you have if you can't climb indoor 5.7?  A 5.7 indoor is typically a jug fest, how stiff can it really be? Not that I think a belay cert is needed, I lead climb at my gym without one but I think it speaks to where you are as a climber and you should probably listen to the advice the rest of the community is trying to give you.

Do I even have to mention the poorly structured paragraphs of run on sentences and unnecessary commas?

Keep a line of sight of your leader and be ready. And vise versa, stay vocal with your belayer.  I once took a 20' - 25' onto a ledge 60' up out of sight of my belayer.  Just enough rope stretch to land on my two feet comfortably.  I should have gave him the good ole' "watch me" and maybe I would of beeen caught! just glad I I didn't get hurt! Had it been my 100 lbs trusted partner, he would definitely of needed to be anchored. Oh but that can lead to a harder catch? I would take a hard catch over a deck any day!

Ryan, that was mean.  Climbing ability has almost nothing to do with belaying.  That 5 year old can crush 5.10d but I would NOT trust that 5 year old to belay me, anchored or not.  For the same reason that 5 year olds can fearlessly climb without understanding consequences, the 5 year old cannot be trusted to understand the gravity of belaying.

As for the height thing, kids have low BMIs due to their high metabolisms and constant growing.  Another huge advantage is their high energy from the high metabolism, and that they ARE growing.  Their tissues (including tendons, ligaments, bones, muscles and brain) all strengthen and heal quicker because it is more vascular tissue because they are still growing, so any climbers who started at 4 year olds have a HUGE advantage over those who started at 60.  Everything is easy when you start out young, from climbing to learning a new language. They also have tons of energy from being new humans and not having been worn down by the stressors of life, free radicals, or puberty/menopause (for women, both are detriments).  It is infinitely unfair to compare OLH to a 5 year old.

I think for someone who started at 60, 5.7 is pretty good.  You obviously had the advantage of starting out younger, but even so, why don't you reconsider your post when you're 85 years old and trying to climb a 5.7, whether you think that 5 year old just outclimbed you is a safer belayer than you.  

Despite my block stance, there may be different opinions for this particular topic (anchoring/blocks) it is not 100% right or 100% wrong like some things are- like always having hand on brake.  Maybe the force of the anchor would have caused OLH to drop the climber, because there is more force on her brake if her anchor stops her upward pull well before the climber stops.  I rarely anchor unless there is over a 50% weight difference, or more frequently, if I am belaying from a ledge and don't want to fall pulling my climber off (or my climber falling prior to the first pro and pulling me 30 feet down onto the rocks below). As for blocks, maybe I have the opposite issue, once someone told me I was standing too far away from the wall when I was trying to view my climber who got past an overhang on a sport climb, so I could determine whether the climber clipped anchors.  I went closer to the wall, but my thinking was, I had my climber on a grigri so wouldn't drop, and even if I was "dragged" somewhat towards the wall lengthening the fall, my climber was already 60 feet up.   It didn't feel good, and I don't completely agree I was too far with the tradeoff being visibility issues if standing super close to the wall (I keep sport climbs at my climber's limit tighter) hence the possible resistance in my brain, but I do keep that in mind for future consideration.

I think it not completely up to the belayer, but how the climber feels comfortable with the belayer is also a consideration. I want my climber to feel comfortable.

Ryan U. wrote:

What was the point of this thread?  Every response was shot down with a "I'm right, you're wrong" type of attitude, almost in a condescending way.

I outweigh my most trusted partner by 55 lbs. He get's pulled up quit often, he stays prepared for this.  If there's ground fall/ledge potential then he's anchored as the general consensus of this thread seems to be, but for some reason the "newish belayer" knows better?  

I recently belayed at a youth climbing competition and there was a 5 year old at about 3.5'. He climbed a 5.10D on completely overhung territory. Flashed it! I'm sure he went on and climbed even harder ones. Later, a kid not much taller absolutely crushed a 5.11D. I climbed the routes after the gym and they fair (if not a little stiff) as far as gym grades go.  It was then I realized that height, strength, ect is just an excuse.  How much belay experience do you have if you can't climb indoor 5.7?  A 5.7 indoor is typically a jug fest, how stiff can it really be? Not that I think a belay cert is needed, I lead climb at my gym without one but I think it speaks to where you are as a climber and you should probably listen to the advice the rest of the community is trying to give you.

Do I even have to mention the poorly structured paragraphs of run on sentences and unnecessary commas?

Keep a line of sight of your leader and be ready. And vise versa, stay vocal with your belayer.  I once took a 20' - 25' onto a ledge 60' up out of sight of my belayer.  Just enough rope stretch to land on my two feet comfortably.  I should have gave him the good ole' "watch me" and maybe I would of beeen caught! just glad I I didn't get hurt! Had it been my 100 lbs trusted partner, he would definitely of needed to be anchored. Oh but that can lead to a harder catch? I would take a hard catch over a deck any day!

Hey, thanks for weighing in, so to speak.

My usual climbing partner is my 23 year old son, so you betcha I'm watching for groundfall potential and a whole lot more when I'm belaying, and, willing to take a hit, if needed, to protect my climbers.

I was out of sight on this one, it happens. Would I do that again? Yes, depending on the circumstances. But, I will be far more cautious with folks who are unfamiliar with our area, and, will not be as trusting of someone like you being overconfident of their abilities.

Kids in gyms? Guess who set the routes for them the last time my gym had a comp?

Glad your landing on that ledge worked out okay! 

Best, Helen

,,,,,,,,, some extras

@sherb, we gotta climb, one of these days. :-)

John Barritt wrote:

This thread is just missing one thing, a good drawing.

:-D 

sherb wrote:

Ryan, that was mean.  Climbing ability has almost nothing to do with belaying.  That 5 year old can crush 5.10d but I would NOT trust that 5 year old to belay me, anchored or not.  For the same reason that 5 year olds can fearlessly climb without understanding consequences, the 5 year old cannot be trusted to understand the gravity of belaying.

table.

That's besides the point, it was in reference to height being an excuse to finishing a 5.7 gym route.  It's not a shot at her climbing abilities, my ego is humbled every time I step onto a rock and I'm by no means a badass climber but that's why if I came onto MP to ask for advice, well I would take it.

@OLH With all due respect, how do you set comp routes if you can't climb the 5.7 routes already there?  You were out of sight but everyone has given you a better place to belay from.  If I remember reading correctly, an eye witness who also climbed the route had even chimed in on the belay position.   Yet as you just stated, "would I do it again? yes, considering the circumstances." Which just goes to show your "over confidence" in your abilities to just shrug off everybody's advice.

I can't help but feel that you really aren't taking much from this but as from me, I've learned a thing or two from this thread. So for that I do thank you!

John Barritt wrote:

This thread is just missing one thing, a good drawing.

Nope. The unprotected belay ledge "2.5'" off the ground and out of sight is a MUCH better option.  It worked one time so it must be right. haha

Now looking back at the picture in the OP, that belay ledge seems higher than 2.5' as stated.  It's almost leveled with the camera looking up at them. I mean unless a child took the photo. Or maybe I'm missing something.