Micronut placements?

I realize the answer is "it depends", but generally, would you usually be doubling up on small gear placements, rather than using them singly? At what size would you be comfortable with singles?

Hoping to buy my first set of stoppers soon! If the set I want is still there, it's a full BD  nut set plus micro plus brass - lots of tinys!

Best, Helen

Mostly comes down to judging the quality of the placement rather than the size of the piece. FWIW I think of "small" as below a #3 nut or #.3 BD. Have whipped all over my .2 BD X4 that wasn't backed up when it was seated perfectly. But I've backed up a #1 that looked like it might walk.

Generally, I'm not sure you need micro gear at the level of routes you seem to  be climbing. Not a lot of "jugs next to seams" climbing most places. Then again I'm a Gunks climber and we've got monster horizontals on most routes below 5.11

I carry a single set DMM brass offsets #2-6 when there doesn't seem to be much visible pro.

Nice to have when you're on a long run-out slab and the only pro in the past 30 feet ends up being a tiny crack.  You don't need to double up on them but may want some of different shape.

Also, brass nuts or RPs do not sit like aluminium stoppers do so think putting long runners on them to prevent the rope from pulling it out (or find an opposing placement to keep them locked in position, but that falls into advanced nutery).

I think of it not so much as "doubling up" vs. placing singly, but rather the number of pieces that have to fail in order for me to take a fall that's likely to result in serious injury.  I am never comfortable if this  number is "1" and I think there's a good chance of me falling, no matter how good the placement seems.  As the gear gets less reliable-seeming, and "small" is definitely a part of that, then the frequency of placement goes up to reflect that, but I'm not necessarily placing multiple pieces right next to each other.   I would second the thought that, at least on the rock types I'm familiar with, your money would be better spent on even one medium-sized cam than a set of micro-stoppers for most routes < 5.8.

Given your level of climbing, a set of DMM wallnuts or BD stoppers will suit you fine; wild country makes good ones too if you can find them.  Usually micronut placements are for steeper route grades (5.10 and up). If you are an area with lots of flared cracks then a set off sets like DMM offsets combined with the DMM peenut will work great.

Get a single set of nuts and cams from like .3 to 3.  Use alpine draws with them or if you have lightweight long quickdraws, use a combination of both to save on weight.  Also it is a good idea to use draws on all nut placements.

Also depends where you climb, having micronuts in the Adirondacks or New Hampshire can be a life saver, even on easy routes.

But I wouldn't trust a tiny micronut or even a shallow nut in sandstone or other soft rock.

Given where you live I'd recommend you instead get a set each of DMM alloy and brass offsets plus a #10 & 11 Wild Country Rocks.

https://www.backcountry.com/dmm-offset-set-7-11?s=a

https://www.backcountry.com/dmm-hb-brass-offset-set-0-5?skid=DMM3257-ONECOL-S06

https://www.backcountry.com/wild-country-rocks-nuts?CMP_SKU=WDC000Z&MER=0406&skid=WDC000Z-GN-S11

Luc-514 wrote:

Also depends where you climb, having micronuts in the Adirondacks or New Hampshire can be a life saver, even on easy routes.

But I wouldn't trust a tiny micronut or even a shallow nut in sandstone or other soft rock.

That's very true.  Since she is beginner trad leader hopeful and shouldn't be on routes where there is a dependency on making thin gear placements.  Though this is just my opinion and I learned to lead on limestone and granite, I don't know how Idaho is like.

If you want to look really old school, get a set of these: https://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/nuts/fro_sentinel.htm

Seth Jones wrote:

I've heard good things about these and keep thinking about grabbing a set. Do you use them?

Nah, I always wanted a set but don't have the need right now.

By small gear I mean brassies, ballnuts,  the smallest nuts in the manufacturer's regular range, and the smallest cams.  My strategy is basically what Kedron Silsbee describes.  The smaller and less reliable the gear, the closer together the placements get (assuming one can manage frequent placements).  But I might double or triple the small stuff if it protects either a ground or ledge fall.  Moreover, sometimes you can get in two or three trinkets from a stance, but spacing them out would require you to place from the midst very insecure or very strenuous moves, so you double or triple up because it isn't practical to space them out.

A worrisome situation occurs when you are at a difficult spot and your small gear placement is way overhead.  The upper belay is nice, but the prospect that the piece might blow and send you on a really big fall because of all the slack created is daunting.  This is one of the situations in which double ropes excel.  Without double ropes, your options are to skip the placement, make the placement but not clip it until you have moved up a bit, or clip the placement with a long sling and then clip the rope in shorter as you pass the piece.

Although of course hard and fast rules are not available, I basically treat small gear as at best good until it gets below my foot level.  Once my feet are above a small placement, I think it best to climb as if that placement wasn't there at all.  

I don't see any harm in a beginner carrying small gear, as long as they are properly suspicious of its efficacy. Even on easy climbs, small gear can make a difference in protection when the good gear is widely-spaced.  Another thing small gear can be useful for is as a directional to hold down a bigger nut that could lift or cam that could rotate in a bad way.  

rgold wrote:

I don't see any harm in a beginner carrying small gear, as long as they are properly suspicious of its efficacy. 

Yes, micronut placements really aren't a beginners topic so good of you to make this particular point.

After wishing I had more nuts in the smaller sizes on one of my first trad leads, I bought some DMM Peanuts and I.M.P.s

The Peanuts overlap in size with the Walnuts and so I carry them along with a set of Alloy Offsets as an almost complete second set of nuts (this was mentioned above). I've carried the IMPs occasionally, but I've NEVER placed them. The Peanuts get some use, but it's pretty limited.

The reason these small nuts get used so infrequently is partly because I'm not leading anything over 5.9, and generally nothing with an R rating. And also because even when a small placement is all that's available, the rock is usually so poor in quality inside the tiny cracks that in most situations, I'd have to clean it out  before I could trust the placement. Sometimes it's worth doing, and sometimes I find a good sections of crack where those Peanuts just work. But usually it's not worth fiddling with at the grade I'm leading when I can just focus on climbing steadily to a better placement.

To sum it up, my experience has been that on moderate terrain, if I really need small gear it's a pretty serious situation. But I'd rather have the option than not.

Wow, thanks!

to be honest, I'm truly just getting started, and, in addition to just being able to get my eyes trained to see these, I am also thinking a bit of something on my harness on sport or even top rope climbs, to get me past the out of reach bit, or even one more move to the out of reach anchors (yeah, it happens). After a huge number of attempts at one move, there is a time to have mercy on the belayer and just get up the thing.

with that in mind, a week or so ago, I popped into the used gear shop, right across the street. They had a full set of stoppers, with a set of micros, and a set of tiny brass, all bundled together....and out of reach moneywise, for now. Ah well.

This morning, I decided this is what debt is for, sucked it up, and went back to buy the big set.

And. It had been split into two sets, the price dropped, and a new tag put on. I bought both sets, of course. :-) 

YOU PEOPLE ARE AWESOME! Never, in 60 years, have I known a community more supportive or fun to hang out with! Best, OLH

It is a combination of things If I am at a ledge I can relax at and it looks like a while before I get another solid placement / stance I will plug multi pieces in even if they are great. If I am at a bad stance sometimes it is better to just toss a piece in and keep going instead of burning energy. Plenty of climbs where the ending is easy jug climbing and you may just run it out because there isn't much risk. So just place a value of judgement on the piece of gear you place, think about what the chances of you falling on this piece gear, think about how much staying for more gear will pump you out and increase the chance of falling, consider what will happen if that piece was to fail. Based on all that information make a choice and go for it.

From the black diamond website: Strength :  [size 1-2] 2 kN (450 lbf), [size 3] 5 kN (1124 lbf), [size 4-5] 6 kN (1349 lbf), [size 6-12] 10 kN (2248 lbf)

Pretend your mass is 60 kg, exerting a force of 0.6 kN (~135 lbs) on your bathroom scale when standing still; if you clip hard to the nut and weight it very very very gently, you'll exert 0.6 kN of force on the nut. If your rope runs to your belayer through a carabiner attached to your nut and you weight the rope very very very gently, you'll exert 0.9 kN of force on the nut. The daintiest, tiniest fall (no slack or tension in the rope, fall with waist right at piece) will be 1.8 kN. The majority of climbing falls are in the 5-8 kN range. Heavier climbers, thicker ropes, braking assist belay devices, high fall factor can crank this number up. 10 kN is hard to manage, even if you fall like a ton of bricks. 

The UIAA does not rate the rock crystals the twinkie nut is attached to either, especially problematic in soft rock.

Moral of the math story: don't count on a single twinkie-nut to hold your fall. Potentially very useful for backing down to an then hanginging on ever so very gently.

Combining several twinkie nuts to increase the failure load is possible; but don't count on "equalization" when you are equalizing.

http://files.meetup.com/1324053/How_strong_does_your_climbing_gear_need_to_be(0).pdf table 3 (and a good read for the rest...)

rgold wrote:

Although of course hard and fast rules are not available, I basically treat small gear as at best good until it gets below my foot level.  Once my feet are above a small placement, I think it best to climb as if that placement wasn't there at all.  

Can you explain why you feel this way? Thank you.

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A lot of varied and interesting perspectives on this. I'm going to throw some ideas out and hopefully get some feed back that would help me and likely Helen in how we consider micro nut placements.

The way I've been thinking about this so far is purely in the kN rating of the piece. I figure anything below 8 kN in rating for micro nuts should have a second piece placed nearby, or as many needed to get the combined rating above 8kN. Preferably 10kN and above if we consider that a full strength rating. Am I missing some other things I should be considering? Particularly I'm wondering do micronuts shear or pull through the rock easier due to their smaller size even if the rock quality and placement was good? Thanks. 

anotherclimber wrote:

Can you explain why you feel this way? Thank you.

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A lot of varied and interesting perspectives on this. I'm going to throw some ideas out and hopefully get some feed back that would help me and likely Helen in how we consider micro nut placements.

The way I've been thinking about this so far is purely in the kN rating of the piece. I figure anything below 8 kN in rating for micro nuts should have a second piece placed nearby, or as many needed to get the combined rating above 8kN. Preferably 10kN and above if we consider that a full strength rating. Am I missing some other things I should be considering? Particularly I'm wondering do micronuts shear or pull through the rock easier due to their smaller size even if the rock quality and placement was good? Thanks. 

What you might be missing is the role that other, non-hardware, factors play in assessing the usefullness of micronut placement(s).  Rgold is simply pointing out that the likelihoiod of a micro holding decreases the further one climbs above it.  Is that such a difficult concept?  Another important consideration is the amount of rope in play.  The force on any piece is going to be much less 130 feet into a lead than just off the belay, all other things being equal.  Then there's the option of a "soft catch" i.e. dynamic belay, but who practices that these days?  

anotherclimber wrote:

Can you explain why you feel this way? Thank you.

When you look at what small gear is capable of holding form a theoretical perspective, the conclusion is typically that it can't hold any type of climbing fall.  But I personally know many folks who have taken real, if short, falls onto micro gear and had it hold, so although one shouldn't count on such gear, there's enough anecdotal evidence from the field not to totally discount it either. My field strategy is that such gear is always questionable, and worthless once its below your feet, although for the smaller trinkets "below your waist" might be a better estimate.  The situation is of course worsened by static belays and high amounts of friction in the system.  Leading on small gear while belayed by an automatic or semiautomatic device is asking for even less certainty about a successful outcome. (One of several things I like about the Alpine Up in this regard is that the belayer can switch from semiautomatic to dynamic belay modes if the protection situation truly calls for it, but caution is called for because the braking assistance in dynamic mode is pretty low...)

My preferred strategy, of course not always obtainable, is to keep the small gear overhead as much as possible, so that the falls it has to resist are upper-belay falls.  But I think this strategy is only good if one is using double ropes and the belayer is competent at managing them.

Luc-514 wrote:

 micronuts in the Adirondacks or New Hampshire can be a life saver, even on easy routes

Noted. Now I'm glad I was randomly perusing this thread. Never know where you'll learn stuff.