Belay from above question

I think everyone covered it pretty well. As mentioned there are a lot of good systems out there that you could use. For me on bolted anchors I like to just use a pre-tied quad, super fast and easy to use. I also tend to lead in blocks these days so I find a rope anchor to be a hassle and slower overall (then again maybe I am just way too slow in general).

wivanoff wrote:I dunno, man. Seems like a case of....

steverett wrote: I was trying to avoid going too far off topic from the original question, but if I can't get the anchor to be above me, then I belay directly off my harness or through a redirect, depending on the situation. Daniel, if you are going to be doing trad multipitch make sure you are knowledgeable and comfortable with these techniques too.

steverett and Daniel T: My comments were not meant to be specific to you guys, but in general and for this entire thread (and other threads). Reading MP, there just seems to be a recurring theme that there is only "one true way" to do certain things.

For example, I recall one thread (maybe it was on Reddit?) where the OP was talking about how he built a hanging belay below a perfectly good ledge because the anchor on the ledge was too low and he wanted to use his guide plate. I got the impression that using the plaquette was the only way he knew to belay from above. Or he thought it was the "modern" way and he had to make the situation fit his solution rather than find a solution for the situation.

steverette: Your comment "Daniel, if you are going to be doing trad multipitch make sure you are knowledgeable and comfortable with these techniques too." was more succinct than what I wrote. Thanks.

steverett wrote: if I can't get the anchor to be above me, then I belay directly off my harness or through a redirect

If the anchor / master point isn't above you, how would you use a redirect? And what would be the advantage?

wivanoff wrote:

 For example, I recall one thread (maybe it was on Reddit?) where the OP was talking about how he built a hanging belay below a perfectly good ledge because the anchor on the ledge was too low and he wanted to use his guide plate. I got the impression that using the plaquette was the only way he knew to belay from above. Or he thought it was the "modern" way and he had to make the situation fit his solution rather than find a solution for the situation.

If the anchor is too low to belay from the ledge, I don't see how it would be any better to belay from your harness. What would be your solution in that situation? If you are above the anchor belaying off your harness, and your partner falls , you will be pulled off the ledge, there will be much more force on the anchor, and there is a much greater risk of losing control and letting go of the brake end. Besides, belaying off your harness from above, without a redirect, puts you in an unnatural position to brake the rope.

I've setup hanging belays below more comfortable ledges in situations where the only viable anchor is a for example a small tree below the ledge (i.e. Arch in the Gunks). As far as I can tell you should never be above your anchor while belaying, it isn't safe and just doesn't work. Even being at the same level as the anchor (for example using the base of a tree you are sitting next to), as opposed to below the master point, is awkward and uncomfortable.

If the anchor is too low on the ledge you can just belay directly off your harness while sitting a the edge of the ledge. This puts you in a good position to see and hear your second and is a comfy belay stance.

wivanoff wrote: OP, there are lots of valid ways to do things. Don't get locked in the noob view that there is only "one true way".

This is exactly why I wanted to try out the Bunny Ear 8.  I had been using the cordalette and I knew it was the answer for Trad routes when you need 3+ pieces but I felt it was wasting time building one for a bolted sport route.

steverett wrote: Daniel, if you are going to be doing trad multipitch make sure you are knowledgeable and comfortable with these techniques too.

To get knowledgeable and comfortable with these techniques i want to practice them on bolted sport routes.  I feel way more comfortable trying new things on bolted anchors, that is after I've run through them a few times on the ground.

Parker Wrozek wrote: For me on bolted anchors I like to just use a pre-tied quad, super fast and easy to use.

I will be trying out this method next.  I want to be prepared for all the common anchor scenarios that I will encounter.

steverett wrote: Ill have to try this out next time. It might be just the trick I need for better rope management. Your rope management looks pretty good; I also coil over my tether. This is more for making sure the anchor doesn't interfere with the belay, and vice versa. Guide plates work best when they aren't contacting anything. If they can't rotate freely, they might not work properly. I usually use a cordalette; this is my typical setup. If the ATC were on the shelf, it would be against the masterpoint knot or loop. (source: multipitchclimbing.com) Downside of this is the ATC is even lower, which means you need a longer tether to be below it.

This is the system I was using and I am planning to use when I start doing trad multis.

I knew I was going to be on a bolted sport route so I didnt want to waste time with a cordalette anchor.  I wanted to try out the bunny ear anchor to see if it was more time efficient. I think its 50/50 in terms of saving time, it was a pain in the a$$ to untie the know after I weighted it for the belay.  I might consider clipping an extra non locker to the knot to give me some wiggle room after the know is weighted and the biner is removed.

Daniel T wrote:

I knew I was going to be on a bolted sport route so I didnt want to waste time with a cordalette anchor.  I wanted to try out the bunny ear anchor to see if it was more time efficient. I think its 50/50 in terms of saving time, it was a pain in the a$$ to untie the know after I weighted it for the belay.  I might consider clipping an extra non locker to the knot to give me some wiggle room after the know is weighted and the biner is removed.

For a two-bolt anchor, just clip a double-length (120cm) sling to each bolt, and tie a master point knot. It doesn't get much easier or versatile than that. It works whether you're swapping leads or not, and can be used as a top-rope anchor. 

No messing with adjustable knots (and FYI the 'bunny ears' knot isn't even redundant if one loop gets cut), and you're not locked into the belay anchor. You can clove-hitch yourself to the master point, and adjust as needed. I appreciate the idea of being minimalist, but sometimes it goes too far, and using less gear can make things more complicated. And all you're saving is one sling and the locker for your clove hitch.. 

eli poss wrote:

If the anchor is too low on the ledge you can just belay directly off your harness while sitting a the edge of the ledge. This puts you in a good position to see and hear your second and is a comfy belay stance.

So if your second falls, you get violently yanked off the ledge, and if you manage to keep your brake hand on the rope, you now need to pull the brake end upwards, which is very counterintuitive compared to the normal brake position.

I know plenty of people do this, but it seems like a terrible idea to me. It seems like you're basically just counting on your second to not fall.

Dan Africk wrote:

So if your second falls, you get violently yanked off the ledge, and if you manage to keep your brake hand on the rope, you know need to pull the brake end upwards, which is very counterintuitive compared to the normal brake position.

I know plenty of people do this, but it seems like a terrible idea to me. It seems like you're basically just counting on your second to not fall.

No, you cloved into the anchor so if your second falls you stay right where you are on the ledge. When I do this, I use a munter hitch because braking upwards is a PITA. It works well and has worked well since before you were born. Try it and you'll see it works.

Dan Africk wrote:

If the anchor / master point isn't above you, how would you use a redirect? And what would be the advantage?

If the anchor is too low to belay from the ledge, I don't see how it would be any better to belay from your harness. What would be your solution in that situation? If you are above the anchor belaying off your harness, and your partner falls , you will be pulled off the ledge, there will be much more force on the anchor, and there is a much greater risk of losing control and letting go of the brake end. Besides, belaying off your harness from above, without a redirect, puts you in an unnatural position to brake the rope.

I've setup hanging belays below more comfortable ledges in situations where the only viable anchor is a for example a small tree below the ledge (i.e. Arch in the Gunks). As far as I can tell you should never be above your anchor while belaying, it isn't safe and just doesn't work. Even being at the same level as the anchor (for example using the base of a tree you are sitting next to), as opposed to below the master point, is awkward and uncomfortable.

I would redirect if the anchor were to the side (possibly with a extra piece to stop me from being pulled sideways). For example, the last piece is to the left of the anchor, but the best spot for me to belay is below or right of the anchor, then it would be hard to use a guide plate (since the brake strand and climber strand aren't parallel).

Here's an illustration:

I would belay direct from the harness if the anchor were right at my harness. I usually do this when my anchor is close to the edge of the ledge, where I am right up at the anchor and the guide plate would be below me. I would not belay from above the anchor. 

I use direct more often than redirect, but they're both situational; I use a guide plate probably >90% of the time. 

Dan Africk wrote:

So if your second falls..., you know need to pull the brake end upwards, which is very counterintuitive compared to the normal brake position.

Correct, which is why I suggested making sure you learn the proper technique and practice it before doing it for real. You load the ATC upside-down from normal, so you're already in that braking position as you're taking in slack. It's not too difficult, and I'm equally comfortable with either method. 

Dan Africk wrote:

If the anchor is too low to belay from the ledge, I don't see how it would be any better to belay from your harness. What would be your solution in that situation? 

I would build the anchor, sit on the ledge with my feet dangling off the edge and me tied tight to the anchor belaying off my harness. If the ledge was wide enough I might sit further back. But there's something to be said for being able to see your partner as she climbs.

I would not build a hanging belay just so I could use a guide plate and would not be below the ledge unless it was really, really tiny.

In the case I was referring to, the ledge was said to be wide enough to sit on but the gear anchor was at foot level at the back of the ledge.

Daniel T wrote:

This is exactly why I wanted to try out the Bunny Ear 8.  I had been using the cordalette and I knew it was the answer for Trad routes when you need 3+ pieces but I felt it was wasting time building one for a bolted sport route.

Look at some of the options I pointed to on multipitchclimbing.com

For example: clove hitch your rope to bolt 1, loop the rope to bolt 2 and clove hitch. Tie a masterpoint in the loop between the bolts. (Topic 6.4)

wivanoff wrote:

Thank you so muck for the link.  there is enough reading on that site to occupy my toilet time for the next 6 months.

Dan Africk wrote:

 FYI the 'bunny ears' knot isn't even redundant if one loop gets cut),

That's a widely held belief, but it's not true.  The bunny ears Figure 8 has been tested numerous times with one loop free.  It doesn't pull through.  You can try this yourself very easily.  Knot failure occurs within the knot at something like 3000+ lbs.  The only conceivable way that the BEF8 is not redundant would be to cut the bit of rope that runs at the base of the knot ( the 3 inches or so that runs between the two loops).  Pretty hard to imagine a scenario where that specific spot gets cut.

I'm not trying to change your mind or force you to use the knot if you're not comfortable with it; just setting the record straight.

Daniel T wrote:

multipitchclimbing.com is a wonderful resource and a true labor of love. I have no connection to it but strongly urge people to support it by buying the kindle book or at least buying David Coley a cup of coffee (click on the site to do that)

All this back and forth about whether or not the 2-loop eight is redundant is irrelevant in this application. No point along a rope in a single rope system is redundant. If you're going to worry about the rope getting cut (and you should), focus on keeping it away from sharp edges over the course of a pitch where it has the potential to be moving under load. 

All the debate about not using the shelf of the 2-loop eight as the masterpoint above is likewise irrelevant. If you don't want to do so, just build a masterpoint wherever you want it by putting an overhand or eight on a bight on the backend of the 2-loop eight.   

If you are doing multipitch and YOU are leading all the pitches using bunny ears is not the advisable way to go  This should only be used when the follower is going to lead the next pitch.  Otherwise you have to build another anchor for the second to clip into so that you can lead the next pitch on the same end of the rope. 

Make sure you read the instructions when using guide mode carefully.  The ATC guide must be hanging freely in space and free of obstructions to make sure it will lock off.  If it is attached to your bunny ears "top shelf" the belay device will be laying on top of the knot which has the potential of impeding it's ability to rotate and locking off properly.  Understand this thoroughly.  I have seen many new leaders these days who rely on guide mode all the time but dont really understand how it works and it's limitations.  It does not work in all situations and you should learn other ways to belay that don't rely on using guide mode (also, how would you belay if you dropped your ATC guide?).

Another option to consider (if you are swapping pitches) is to tie a figure eight on a bight on the followers side of rope just below the bunny ears knot and use this to attach your ATC guide in guide mode.  This will make sure ATC guide hangs freely.  Note:  it's always easier to belay in guide mode when you are below the belay device so make sure you have a big enough front desk (the distance between your harness tiie in figure eight follow knot to the anchor knot).