Climber takes a whip, has a close call....and, a newish belayer

Helen should find an experienced outdoor climbing mentor to learn from, in person.

Brian in SLC wrote: I get nervous when I see belayers especially with heavy gloves on...my bet is they can't tell how hard they're gripping the rope, or, can't maintain a solid grip on the rope either.

As a belayer that on occasion weighs half what her partner weighs, I give a lot of thought on how to make belaying safer, for both of us. I agree with Brian on this one. I tried gloves because I kept hearing from everyone how much safer it was. I constantly felt like I couldn't tell if my grip was as tight as it normally was. In gloves, I would over grip the rope to the point I would be pumped from just belaying. I feel safer without gloves, and I have never had my hand pulled into the belay device, despite catching a reasonable number of falls, both trad and sport.

FrankPS wrote:Helen should find an experienced outdoor climbing mentor to learn from, in person.

This has been hinted at, in many ways. To many times. . . .
(#Donnaworryah'bouit) but yeah I do... Glad you see it too.
That said;
While it is not always clear, this is one 'tuff' old lady
who thinks things through.

She may play a goofy nooofy, (nø0ß) here, on tv
but
The University gym &
Columnar Basalt! (Diabase, Trapp Rock at its best)
are stout leaning grounds,
and a playground of skilled climbers from the looks of it.

Given that you have noticed the mix of the folks,
it is good to recognize a voice of Experience in the crowd!

Frank,,my apologies, I see now you've been on-board more than I!

I am glad to Join a few of us in the occasional checking in on Helens safety & Progress!

Old lady H wrote: Really?

Other than you're not an idiot, why do you wear gloves for belaying?

Were you taught you needed to as part of the uniform? Was there a specific reason?

And, no fair parsing what rgold has said...(ha ha).

Brian in SLC wrote: Other than you're not an idiot, why do you wear gloves for belaying? Were you taught you needed to as part of the uniform? Was there a specific reason? And, no fair parsing what rgold has said...(ha ha).

Gee, Brian, I'm just a soft handed, soft headed, glove wearing kinda girl, how would I know?

So. Hm. You want good reasons that rgold has never mentioned in numerous threads over the years?

Hmmmm...Nope. must be soft headed. Can't do it without tipping my hat at rgold.

Sorry Brian. You'll have to get your expertise from...others.

Or read upthread carefully. Or pm. OLH :-)

Old lady H wrote:Or read upthread carefully. Or pm. OLH :-)

Let me see if I get the gist of what you posted above...(wasn't looking to others for expertise, here, but, trying to understand why YOU wear gloves).

You wear gloves because you know your ATC will bite you?

In that case, you need to change your belay device, IMHO.

Or, add an additional carabiner to increase the friction in your belay system.

Googlin' around on gloves and belaying...comes this thread:

ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…

Interesting to read Jim Titt's responses...(as usual)...

Folks have actually quantified gloves and their % reduction in grip force on a rope. Interesting stuff...

What's also of note, methinks, is that this fall, although your partner is a bigger guy and outweighs you a bunch, was a fairly low fall factor. So, while there was some force in the system, maybe not near as much had he less rope out, or, not been so far up the route.

10 feet above his pro (maybe) and 2/3s the way up a 60 foot route. 40 feet of rope out? Theoretically, his fall factor was 20/40= .5? Until his piece blew.

Still...was a lower fall factor. And your hand got sucked into your device to the point that the glove was stuck. In a higher fall factor...how would that have played out?

Fun discussion...glad your amenable to sharing!

Brian in SLC wrote: I know of at least one person who died when the rope slipped through a glove. So, there's that "data" too.

Glad you put "data" in quotes. We have no idea what would have happened without gloves.

Of course, heavy clumsy gloves are not an ideal choice (although such gloves or mittens may be needed in the winter and on alpine routes---are people saying you can't belay in winter conditions? ).

I've used a variety of gloves, all designed for either rock-climbing or alpine climbing. I've never had a conscious sensation of reduced grip, although I know this is a feature of gloved hands. I've caught plenty of falls without rope slippage, so the gloves have not compromised my belaying ability in any grossly detectable way.

I know for certain that I can't stop a 160 lb weight in a factor 1.8 fall without rope slippage, because I've done the tests over and over. I'd have burns down to the bone if I tried those catches bare-handed. Is that test unrealistically severe because of the weight not being deformable and/or jointed? It is certainly more severe, maybe more like catching a 200 lb person? But, as long as there is a chance I could experience that type of impact climbing, I'll be using gloves. YMMV

Chris Hill wrote:Nate, a badass climber Old Lady H, This is the weirdest sentence in your whole post, given the events. Incompetence is not "badass", it's just bad, and in climbing it's dangerous....

This is basically what I get out of the whole thing. Not sure how you consider this guy a badass. It kind of reflects on your judgement a bit...

rgold wrote: Glad you put "data" in quotes. We have no idea what would have happened without gloves.

Was winter on an ice climb. Not wearing gloves wasn't an option.

rgold wrote:Of course, heavy clumsy gloves are not an ideal choice (although such gloves or mittens may be needed in the winter and on alpine routes---are people saying you can't belay in winter conditions? ).

Of course not. But, modifying your choice of device to match the rope...modifying your belay technique to accommodate gloves...all make sense.

rgold wrote:I've used a variety of gloves, all designed for either rock-climbing or alpine climbing. I've never had a conscious sensation of reduced grip, although I know this is a feature of gloved hands.

I started ice climbing in Montana back when it actually got cold in winter (ha ha). I definitely felt with heavy gloves or mittens on that I had a much reduced grip on the rope. Thankfully, folks didn't fall much back in those days.

rgold wrote:I know for certain that I can't stop a 160 lb weight in a factor 1.8 fall without rope slippage, because I've done the tests over and over. I'd have burns down to the bone if I tried those catches bare-handed. Is that test unrealistically severe because of the weight not being deformable and/or jointed? It is certainly more severe, maybe more like catching a 200 lb person? But, as long as there is a chance I could experience that type of impact climbing, I'll be using gloves. YMMV

Yep, my MMV. I've caught a number of long hard falls too. Not in a testing environment but I don't harbor any illusions that a high fall factor with an average US (!) size male may be difficult and result in rope burns. The long, high fall factor falls I have caught, I managed to shuck rope in reducing the fall length (as my partner fell well past me) and I don't recall rope slipping at all when he hit the end of the line, so to speak.

But, I don't doubt a hard fall with a heavy partner could result in rope burns. To me, that's an acceptable risk, as, I find my belaying more comfortable, more tactile, more exact, less fumbly...without gloves. And, I know my grip is better (having had icy ropes slip through gloves in the winter) bare handed.

That said, until folks realize how to manage their friction, whether belaying or rappelling, then, using a glove 'cause so-and-so says its a good idear on the internet really doesn't answer the mail for me. Use a glove to prevent damage to your hand(s)...sure. But, get a handle on what it really means to provide a safe, secure belay.

Some amusing info on belaying...:

eveningsends.com/new-rules-…

Note the part about gloves...

Cheers!

i also side with healyj on the whole ton of rope slipping through the atc thing. i have caught a LOT of falls on ATC's, including one which was pretty close to FF2 directly on my harness, without that much rope running through.

i completely disagree with rgold (as i always have) about using a belay glove. i find that they decrease your dexterity and are usually more slippery. if somebody thinks they absolutely need a glove to belay me, i'll pass. thanks.

to me it ultimately comes down to the belayer having their shit together. i have seen a lot of 'experienced' climbers that i would never let belay me. i have also seen (and been belayed by) complete beginners that i had complete confidence in.

slim wrote:i find that they decrease your dexterity and are usually more slippery.

Are we still talking about belaying? Not neurosurgery? Just how much dexterity do you need to pull a (approximately) 9mm cord back and forth through a metal tube?

slim wrote:i find that they decrease your dexterity and are usually more slippery. if somebody thinks they absolutely need a glove to belay me, i'll pass. thanks.

Ice climbers do it every day all day, not a problem.

Regarding the whole gloves thing, I think that more often than not glove provide more hindrance than help. However, in the rare cases that they do provide more help than hindrance (rope slippage/burns and hand getting sucked into the ATC), the consequence of not having them are pretty damn high and usually mean a dropped climber. Considering the whole risk calculation of probability versus severity, I'd say that wearing gloves is better than not.

That being said, I've only worn gloves once or twice and I highly doubt I will start wearing them unless its cold, mostly because I don't like wearing gloves and I'm lazy. I guess that probably says something about me as a climber, but I'm willing to live with the truth.

Just because you haven't had your hand sucked into the ATC doesn't mean it can't happen. I've had it happen to me and it actually wasn't on a skinny rope or a significantly heavier person. The rope was an old fatty 10 something and the climber weight 20 or 30 more pounds. It really was just a big whip. Luckily for my climber, I have a really high pain tolerance and was able to hold on to the brake throughout the entire ordeal. It did hurt like a motherfucker, though, and gloves definitely would have made that catch a lot more pleasant.

I'm clearly in the minority on this one (even had my belay card revoked). I think both sides of the issue have been covered at this point. As with many things, everyone will have to make up their own minds, (if they haven't already).

On the glove thing...I have a pair but almost never use them as I like the more precise feel I have without them. And I have no problem with folks who use them--whatever you are comfy with. Here is an interesting anecdotal "data" point...BITD, I caught an 80-foot factor 2 fall (leader was airborne through most of it) with a Sticht plate that was directly on the anchor. Now, a Sticht plate isn't at all like our newer ATC devices, or the DMM pivot I currently use, so much more slippage is likely with the ancient Sticht (I would guess). In my case, when I caught the fall I was not wearing gloves and something like 3-5 feet of rope went through the device causing a perfect melted U-groove across my bare belay hand (which wasn't pulled into the device, BTW). Did I notice it at the time? No. No pain at all. My shock and adrenaline-assisted reaction at the moment was to not let go of the damn rope no matter what. Later on, it hurt like hell, of course. Gloves, no gloves? It made no difference in my particular case on that particular day, but I can certainly see why you would want to use them (I highly respect rgold's opinions). No matter what, though, get it through your brain to NEVER let go of the rope with your belay hand--the only excuse would be being knocked unconscious or death. Helen, I appreciate your attitude...this thread has been quite educational for me. Glad you and your partner are OK. Thanks!

I missed this somehow...

rgold wrote:I think one partial reason is that you brake with the rope partially around your hip and so get extra friction, something almost no one I've seen does with an ATC. (It's a great idea, but most belayers I've seen have their braking hand almost on top of the ATC.)

That's probably it. So many years of lead belaying and catching falls with a single non-locking biner ingrained that braking action over my upper-thigh / hip such that it's an completely automatic and I don't have to think about. If you just have your brake hand statically hanging out in space and not either diving it straight down just between your upper-thighs (best rope / atc angle) or driving it back behind your upper-thigh / hip (way more friction) then I suppose you could run some rope because the angle to the device is going to be sub-optimal and you won't get any additional friction to assist you.

The added friction of taking it back around the thigh / hip must be significant as I've just never experienced any rope running even on near or actual FF2 falls straight on my hip belay, stitch and ATC.

rgold wrote:And maybe you've got really high grip strength?

Rest assured that isn't the case which is why I avail myself of any and all additional friction options I can.

On going over in my head what happens in falls, I know as I bring my right, braking hand back around my right hip - I also typically rotate my whole body 30-45 degrees or so to the right at the same time so an imaginary line drawn between my shoulders would now be more parallel to the rope. That changes the angle between the leader's side of the rope and the ATC so I get more friction on that side of the ATC as well the braking side. And as I rotate I will sometimes also step my right foot back into a wider stance and then lean on that back foot as well. It all adds up to my being more in-line with the rope, more braking power on both sides of the ATC, more control in general, and I'm less likely to come out of my stance. That may seem like a lot going on, but as I said, it all happens fast and automatically without ever thinking about it.

Daniel Joder wrote:On the glove thing...I have a pair but almost never use them as I like the more precise feel I have without them. And I have no problem with folks who use them--whatever you are comfy with. Here is an interesting anecdotal "data" point...BITD, I caught an 80-foot factor 2 fall (leader was airborne through most of it) with a Sticht plate that was directly on the anchor. Now, a Sticht plate isn't at all like our newer ATC devices, or the DMM pivot I currently use, so much more slippage is likely with the ancient Sticht (I would guess). In my case, when I caught the fall I was not wearing gloves and something like 3-5 feet of rope went through the device causing a perfect melted U-groove across my bare belay hand (which wasn't pulled into the device, BTW). Did I notice it at the time? No. No pain at all. My shock and adrenaline-assisted reaction at the moment was to not let go of the damn rope no matter what. Later on, it hurt like hell, of course. Gloves, no gloves? It made no difference in my particular case on that particular day, but I can certainly see why you would want to use them (I highly respect rgold's opinions). No matter what, though, get it through your brain to NEVER let go of the rope with your belay hand--the only excuse would be being knocked unconscious or death. Helen, I appreciate your attitude...this thread has been quite educational for me. Glad you and your partner are OK. Thanks!

Daniel, thanks for posting this, as I've always wondered if anyone ever actually caught a serious FF2... and what it felt like. Like many other climbers I've caught a few big falls, using a variety of belay devices (but no autolocking devices) and I've never lost control of the rope or hurt my hand. And like many climbers I've been pulled awkwardly into the rock and banged up my elbows but have never dropped a climber, even BITD when I used a hip belay.

OLH, why don't you use a Gri Gri?

Also, Peter Terbush didn't let go.

mtc wrote:I've always wondered if anyone ever actually caught a serious FF2... and what it felt like.

It sucks big time - pretty savage no matter how you look at it - but, if you hold your partner, then that more than makes up for the beating.

Indeed.

Regarding Helen's belabored story: a helmet is never a bad idea, and don't belay directly under the leader. Own a couple different belay devices for different rope diameters/slickness. TRY to maintain visual contact with the leader so you can warn about rope behind leg, pro walking or falling out, and so you have a little more time to react when the leader falls. Happy climbing!

Edit to add: my apologies, I see she was responsibly wearing her brain bucket.

mtc wrote: I've always wondered if anyone ever actually caught a serious FF2.

Well, as I've said here and elsewhere, I've caught one FF2 fall in the field, one FF1.8 in the field, and about 20 FF1.8's in a practice situation with a 160 lb weight for the falling climber and no system friction other than the carabiner, so all together 22 maximal-impact falls.

As to what it feels like, all I can say is it is a violent jolt. "Ordinary" catches with fall factor substantially less than 1 and friction through the system reducing the load transmitted to the belayer will not prepare you for what it is like.