5.15 on gear?

Interesting read, Bryce. Thanks for the link. Puts the present discussion into perspective.

Healyje wrote: Again, there is no pink, red, purple, magenta or any other kind of 'point' in trad climbing. And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing.

Good lord, dude, when you make absolutist statements like that you always paint yourself into a corner.

You mean to say that when someone clips a fixed pin or two while they're onsighting a runout 5.12 pitch in the rain with a cinderblock tied to their nutsack, well, they're not trad climbing?

Pnelson wrote: Good lord, dude, when you make absolutist statements like that you always paint yourself into a corner. You mean to say that when someone clips a fixed pin or two while they're onsighting a runout 5.12 pitch in the rain with a cinderblock tied to their nutsack, well, they're not trad climbing?

He's the expert on all things climbing. If you don't believe me, just ask him.

Wilson On The Drums wrote:^^^ This actually brings up a really good discussion point. If sport climbers can claim a send with pre-hung draws, which pretty much every hard route that is getting sent is in this style. Why can't a trad climb FA be claimed in this manner (pre-placed gear)?

...Because then it wouldn't be trad climbing. The difference between trad and sport comes down to ethos. Climbing a trad climb with pre-placed gear would be sport climbing. Obviously, this might be necessary when working a route, and many hard trad accents have ventured into "sprad" territory in this fashion and by having the climbers bring the exact gear needed for dialed placements, but at the very least, the climber should place the gear on lead for a trad ascent. Bolted trad climbs (e.g: slabs) are a little murkier. I guess the climber would need to hang their own draws?

Wilson On The Drums wrote:^^^ This actually brings up a really good discussion point. If sport climbers can claim a send with pre-hung draws, which pretty much every hard route that is getting sent is in this style. Why can't a trad climb FA be claimed in this manner (pre-placed gear)?

It can be claimed, and people do this. This has been happening for decades.

Case study: Peter Croft did the first free ascent of Zombie Roof (12d/13a roof crack) way back in the day. Because it is a huge hassle to clean gear between goes, and of course is also strenous to place the gear, he climbed it with the gear already in place. This was cool; it made sense given the route, and who in their right mind would criticize Peter Croft for style? Years later someone finally did a "redpoint" ascent placing all the gear on lead. This was cool too, and people took note; it was an evolution in the style. Also a guy with no legs climbed it. And then in recent years Stanhope solo'd the thing.

Anyway, there are lots of acceptable styles to do an FA. If your ascent is done in a "lesser" style, this just leaves room for the next guy to improve upon it. As long as you don't alter the rock and report what you did honestly, why does it matter what "counts" as a "trad" ascent.

I basically don't use the term "trad" climbing anymore, in part due to all this baggage.

Ted Pinson wrote: The difference between trad and sport comes down to ethos. Climbing a trad climb with pre-placed gear would be sport climbing.

Just clarifying that you don't mean ethics, but actually ethos-

e·thos
ˈēTHäs/Submit
noun
the characteristic spirit of a culture, era, or community as manifested in its beliefs and aspirations.
"a challenge to the ethos of the 1960s"
synonyms: spirit, character, atmosphere, climate, mood, feeling, tenor, essence

In which case I agree.

NTTAWW trad, sprad or sport.

JCM wrote: I basically don't use the term "trad" climbing anymore, in part due to all this baggage.

Unfortunately 'Trad' is becoming a pejorative term meaning old, intolerant, and cranky (or should I say 'crikey'?)

Ted Pinson wrote: ...Because then it wouldn't be trad climbing. The difference between trad and sport comes down to ethos. Climbing a trad climb with pre-placed gear would be sport climbing. Obviously, this might be necessary when working a route, and many hard trad accents have ventured into "sprad" territory in this fashion and by having the climbers bring the exact gear needed for dialed placements

Basically all "hard" (cutting edge) trad ascents of the last decade have had a "sprad" element to them, be it from hangdogging, extensive TR rehearsal, preplaced gear, or whatever. Even the top-end flash/onsight attempts tend to involve extensive gear beta.

Dave MacLeod disagrees. Rhapsody is .... words can't describe. 14c with a 70ft fall!

Mark E Dixon wrote: Just clarifying that you don't mean ethics, but actually ethos- e·thos ˈēTHäs/Submit noun the characteristic spirit of a culture, era, or community as manifested in its beliefs and aspirations. "a challenge to the ethos of the 1960s" synonyms: spirit, character, atmosphere, climate, mood, feeling, tenor, essence In which case I agree. NTTAWW trad, sprad or sport. Unfortunately 'Trad' is becoming a pejorative term meaning old, intolerant, and cranky (or should I say 'crikey'?)

I meant ethos. :) There's not really an ethical difference between the two, unless you want to make a pointless argument about the ethics of permanent anchors.

Ted Pinson wrote: ...Because then it wouldn't be trad climbing.

Ding, ding, ding! Give that man a beer.

Pnelson wrote: Good lord, dude, when you make absolutist statements like that you always paint yourself into a corner.

At least when I paint myself into a corner you can bet your ass it will be with black or white paint and not red, hot pink, peridot or chartreuse. But in this case it's just a simple statement of fact - all the 'pointing' nonsense with it's rainbow-spectrum of distinctions without a difference simply don't exist in trad. You can certainly bring that nonsense over from sport, but it has no relevancy in trad where you either a) did it clean and onsight, b) did it clean, or c) you simply climbed it - no further coloring or shading of what happened is necessary, unless, I suppose, a delicate sense of accomplishment requires it.

Healyje wrote: all the 'pointing' nonsense with it's rainbow-spectrum of distinctions without a difference simply don't exist in trad. You can certainly bring that nonsense over from sport, but it has no relevancy in trad where you either a) did it clean and onsight, b) did it clean, or c) you simply climbed it - no further coloring or shading of what happened is necessary, unless, I suppose, a delicate sense of accomplishment requires it.

It doesn't exist in sport either, except in the imagination of climbers out of touch since the 80s.

In sport climbing you either a) did it clean and onsight, (or flash) b) did it clean, (ie redpoint) or c) you simply climbed it (ie didn't climb it, since you presumably didn't onsight or redpoint.

If I may return to the OP, I'm with Viper on this. I just binged a ton of videos and all the badass .14s and such were practiced and climbed with the right gear with the right extender in the right order on the rack. I was thinking what Viper said as I watched,"This is like sport with trad gear." I can't do it. I won't be able to do it, I'm not hating on folks who can go that hard, but I found the lines blurring in my head. 

ViperScale wrote: Again, there is no pink, red, purple, magenta or any other kind of 'point' in trad climbing. And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing. There is a brown point in trad climbing though.

Can't believe I missed this gem of a post!  Were you referring to this:

Healyje wrote: And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing.

Maybe. It depends on what the gear is. If it's not trad or aid and we're not top roping, then the last option would classify it as sport. However, if the preplaced pro at the crux happens to be some shitty micro cam in a flare that's 10' below the start of a long crux sequence, that's not sport climbing regardless if it's preplaced or not. By contrast, that would effectively be equivalent to climbing a bolted route protected by 30-year old, run-out quarter-inchers and calling that sport climbing.

20 kN wrote:

...the preplaced pro...

Call it what you will, but you've left the realm of trad climbing at that point...

Like most MP threads I found this to be unreadable by the fourth or fifth post.

Preplaced or rehearsed I'd challenge anyone on here to climb ten feet above their green C3 at their limit... BOOM, mind blown.

All the time... It's a 7kn cam it's good to go

Yes 7kn, but with a 5.1mm useable range (how many ____ hairs is that?) improper placement or poor rock quality could mean some added fun real quick!

Never ever been a problem. You stuff them in like anything else and they are bomber little cams. I have gone 10ft over the 000 at close to my limit

Tom Sherman wrote:

Preplaced or rehearsed I'd challenge anyone on here to climb ten feet above their green C3 at their limit... BOOM, mind blown.

Six 25'-30' whips in a row onto a #3 ballnut near my limit - does that count? Oh, and came right out with a squeeze of the trigger afterwards. How about a 30' whip definitely at my limit onto a #2 Crack 'N Up rigged for free climbing?