5.15 on gear?

5.15 on trad gear sounds like DEATH

T Roper wrote: Crikey dude, havent you ever just SENT a route you had been trying for a long while? Since you dont preplace like a sport-wanky that would be a redpoint, facebook or no facebook.

No, it wouldn't. The term is certainly valid and appropriate in the context of sport climbing, but meaningless in trad unless you're just sport climbing on gear. Or have these terms already lost their original and quite specific meanings at this point?

My guess is it'll happen soon enough, probably by some bold, beer-bellied climber in the southeast...

Parker Stacks wrote:My guess is it'll happen soon enough, probably by some bold, beer-bellied climber in the southeast...

Cody Roth?

Healyje wrote:Crikey, there is no '___point' nonsense in trad climbing. You either got an an FA, onsight FA, onsight ascent or you didn't.

T Roper wrote: Crikey dude, havent you ever just SENT a route you had been trying for a long while? Since you dont preplace like a sport-wanky that would be a redpoint, facebook or no facebook.

I kind of agree with Healyje's sentiment here. The term red point, or whatever, is basically redundant in trad. If you "redpointed" a trad route, you sent it. The term is redundant. Just say you sent it. It's more efficient language.

Heck, it's basically redundant in sport climbing now too, as no one really cares about pre-placed draws, or so I hear.

Brian L. wrote: I kind of agree with Healyje's sentiment here. The term red point, or whatever, is basically redundant in trad. If you "redpointed" a trad route, you sent it. The term is redundant. Just say you sent it. It's more efficient language. Heck, it's basically redundant in sport climbing now too, as no one really cares about pre-placed draws, or so I hear.

I generally say I "sent" a trad route if I led it to the top without falling, but I'd only say I redpointed the route if I did it placing gear. I.e. if I lead a route with a hang/fall, and then leave the pro up and take another lap on it because it's a pain to clean, that's a send, but not a redpoint.

Tim Lutz wrote: are you referring to this? mountainproject.com/v/mainl… where he sent on draws, scoped and tested the placements, then 'Trad' sent?

More a joke about him having a bold beer-bellied personality.

ckersch wrote: I generally say I "sent" a trad route if I led it to the top without falling, but I'd only say I redpointed the route if I did it placing gear. I.e. if I lead a route with a hang/fall, and then leave the pro up and take another lap on it because it's a pain to clean, that's a send, but not a redpoint.

How often are you leading routes without placing gear?

Also, as Healyje said, at that point you're basically sport climbing. It's a different style of climbing.

If you told me you sent a trad route, I'd assume you lead it, placing gear, not the other way around.

Brian L. wrote: How often are you leading routes without placing gear? Also, as Healyje said, at that point you're basically sport climbing. It's a different style of climbing. If you told me you sent a trad route, I'd assume you lead it, placing gear, not the other way around.

The route in question traverses a lot and is a pain to clean top-down. Generally it's easiest for someone to second it to get the gear, but my climbing partner for the day couldn't pull the low crux. I opted to lead it with most of the gear in rather than TRing it to fetch my gear before heading back up.

Not a common situation, of course, but a reasonable way to project something that's annoying to clean. Terminology-wise, it makes sense to say you've "sent" the climb once you've led it clean, but if the gear was already placed, the style could obviously be better. Hence why another term like "redpoint" is a useful descriptor.

ckersch wrote: The route in question traverses a lot and is a pain to clean top-down. Generally it's easiest for someone to second it to get the gear, but my climbing partner for the day couldn't pull the low crux. I opted to lead it with most of the gear in rather than TRing it to fetch my gear before heading back up. Not a common situation, of course, but a reasonable way to project something that's annoying to clean. Terminology-wise, it makes sense to say you've "sent" the climb once you've led it clean, but if the gear was already placed, the style could obviously be better. Hence why another term like "redpoint" is a useful descriptor.

This is a pinkpoint, at least as I always understood the definition. When climbing a gear route, placing the gear is part of the beta and the difficulty. It is better form to place all of the gear as you lead, hence the distinction between red and pink. Both are legitimate free ascents, however. Take The Almighty, in Teton Canyon, for instance. Ty Mack did the FFA, but had a few pre placed pieces, one of which was a blind placement and could have resulted in a gnarly fall if it blew. Jonathan Siegrist later repeated it placing all the gear on his redpoint ascent. Both legit free ascents, but one is better style.

It largely doesn't matter on sport climbs if you place the draws on each burn. In that arena you just look like a noob if you clean your draws every time you fall.

Not 5.15, but pretty close.
youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh…
youtube.com/watch?v=FH82iIp…
youtube.com/watch?v=cxy01Xd…

run out is the game

Tom Rangitsch wrote:When climbing a gear route, placing the gear is part of the beta and the difficulty. It is better form to place all of the gear as you lead, hence the distinction between red and pink.

Again, there is no pink, red, purple, magenta or any other kind of 'point' in trad climbing. And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing.

That "Augmentium" video is awesome!!

Is that close to 5.15 though?

Healyje wrote: Again, there is no pink, red, purple, magenta or any other kind of 'point' in trad climbing. And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing.

There is a brown point in trad climbing though.

Tom Rangitsch wrote: This is a pinkpoint, at least as I always understood the definition. When climbing a gear route, placing the gear is part of the beta and the difficulty. It is better form to place all of the gear as you lead, hence the distinction between red and pink. Both are legitimate free ascents, however. Take The Almighty, in Teton Canyon, for instance. Ty Mack did the FFA, but had a few pre placed pieces, one of which was a blind placement and could have resulted in a gnarly fall if it blew. Jonathan Siegrist later repeated it placing all the gear on his redpoint ascent. Both legit free ascents, but one is better style. It largely doesn't matter on sport climbs if you place the draws on each burn. In that arena you just look like a noob if you clean your draws every time you fall.

Totally agree! I feel like trad is always a project for me until I've led it placing gear (which happened my next day at the crag). If anything, redpoint/pinkpoint make more sense in trad than in sport, since making placements is part of the game.

The "point" terminology is also less ambiguous than saying "I sent my project as a sport climb, then I sent it on trad." If someone told me that, I'd assume they meant that they'd done a gear ascent of a bolted line.

A 70 meter climbable face protected entirely with blue ball nuts and requiring dynos between small 1-2 finger quarter pad crimpers. Or roof cracks. Some people like to heckle and say if you TR or project a route it isn't traditional style. This is technically true, but these people are also aware that you are talking about gear protectable routes and not bolted routes. That being said, it would be a truly difficult thing to find and not have an X-rating attached. And if anyone sends a 5.15X gear route I'll quit rock climbing....

Healyje wrote: Again, there is no pink, red, purple, magenta or any other kind of 'point' in trad climbing. And if you aren't placing the gear on lead you're not trad climbing.

Healyje, would you mind briefly explaining what your working definition of "trad climbing" is?

To be clear, I'm not challenging you, I'm genuinely curious what your perspective on "trad climbing" is. Most people here seem to be placing the distinction at the level of gear; for reference, in Freedom of the Hills the definition of "trad climbing" is "Technical rock climbing in which climbers place and remove protection; compare sport climbing."

It seems like you're going a bit deeper than distinguishing them solely on the presence or absence of gear like cams and chocks (though you do connect the placing of gear on lead to the essence of trad climbing in the post quoted above). Otherwise, I can't see why terms like redpoint and pinkpoint would not apply. Is it more of an overall approach/mindset? Ground-up, onsight ascents or nothing at all? If you try a route again, or top-rope it or hangdog it for practice, are you "sprad climbing," a term I've also seen you use?

^^^ This actually brings up a really good discussion point. If sport climbers can claim a send with pre-hung draws, which pretty much every hard route that is getting sent is in this style. Why can't a trad climb FA be claimed in this manner (pre-placed gear)?

Wilson On The Drums wrote:^^^ This actually brings up a really good discussion point. If sport climbers can claim a send with pre-hung draws, which pretty much every hard route that is getting sent is in this style. Why can't a trad climb FA be claimed in this manner (pre-placed gear)?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn it already has occurred, but I sure don't know.

Just for fun, found this on the interwebz...Supper's Ready, 12a, Gunks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtZoaeaWydM

AaronJ wrote: Healyje, would you mind briefly explaining what your working definition of "trad climbing" is?

Some cool history of this debate from the '80s: publications.americanalpine…