Petzl Nomics vs. Grivel Machine 3.0?

Do I'm looking at upgrading my ice tools from my BD Vipers to either the Petzl Nomics or Grivel Machine 3.0?
I know from reading the differences in geometry from one to the other and I know the one piece forged body of the machine is said to reduce vibration, improve dampening, but has anyone felt am actual difference between the Machine and other tools?

Also, I read where one person had issues with the Grivel'so handle being the hard plastic and dual design site foam as in certain instances it started to feel unsecured in husband grip?

Ideas...thoughts?....
Thanks all!

Okay, so I have 1st gen nomics, carbon Tech Machines and Machine 3.0s. Yeah, I might have a problem! I'd say with tool will be an upgrade, but it depends on your usage.

The Machine 3.0 excels in lower angle situations, 2-4 ice. It has a very natural swing and places solidly. I've been impressed by its ability to get over bulges in the ice, but that bar is pretty low due to the linear nature of the shaft. This is decidedly not a tool for steep bulgy ice! My main pet peeve is that it prefers unblemished ice. When you are creating placements it is brilliant, it is not very good hooking airy ice or pervious placements. Steep mixed is also not its forte. I find the handle more comfortable then the NoMic personally. It is a damp tool, but not head and shoulders above others.

Nomics are Nomics. Nice swing and good in most situations. My hand has never gotten along with the handle, but other then that, really nice. I would base my decision on the ice you are most likely to climb. Lots of virgin, alpine style flows? Machine 3. Steeper note hooked out or mixed? Nomic.

That's my dollar worth.

Jon thank you...that gives me do mm e good I sight into the Machines and the differences you found between them.

I think I'm somewhere between buldgy ice and true vertical ice as well...I guess I'm looking for the magic bullet of skrts...one tool to do most all of it. I like the pros of the machine but have heard Nomics are tools that handle it all.

Any idea how the handle co.pares in feel to the BD Vipers or even the Petzl Quarks?

I like the handle/grip of the vipers...never swung and climbed with nomics...had a chance to this weekend but ended up just forgetting to grab them and go up! Oh well..oops!

And might I add on definitely want a tool that will handle getting over bulges in ice well...

Machine 3.0 is really different from the nomic. If you haven't tried either, go nomic. If you've tried both, get the one you like. If you have tried both, chances are it's the nomic. Get the nomic.

JasonSH wrote: I think I'm somewhere between buldgy ice and true vertical ice as well...I guess I'm looking for the magic bullet of skrts...one tool to do most all of it.

I know, I'm like a broken record on this... but you should spend some time with Trango Raptors before you buy any of those other tools. Amazing in thin or delicate ice, great hooking etc.

Gunkiemike wrote: I know, I'm like a broken record on this... but you should spend some time with Trango Raptors before you buy any of those other tools. Amazing in thin or delicate ice, great hooking etc.

I've played with the raptors. They are not bad... Nomics are better. If you are on a tight buget the raptors are definitely worth a look, but if you have the money, get Nomics, you won't regret it.

Have you tried the North Machine? It is based on the Wuantum Tech. As long as the slightly narrow grip fits your mit it is one of the most versatile tools ever built.

Max Forbes wrote:Machine 3.0 is really different from the nomic. If you haven't tried either, go nomic. If you've tried both, get the one you like. If you have tried both, chances are it's the nomic. Get the nomic.

So are you're saying get the Nomic?...LOL

Providing a slightly different point of view. I bought the 3.0's with the intention of using them for what folks have listed above- Ice up to grade 4. I also have the carbon tech machines which I intended to use for 4+ and harder and mixed climbing. As the season played out, I found myself always reaching for the 3.0's as they're such a joy to use due mostly to their natural swing. I've found myself leading terrain up to grade 5 with them with no issues, despite the geometry. I think this is due to the angle of the handle itself rather than the shaft. Much to my surprise, the 3.0's have been great at clearing weird blobby ice features of all types. Definitely my favorite tool I've used and I've used a whole bunch, including Nomics.

All that said, I'm not the best or most experienced ice climber. Just offering a different perspective.

Jon Miller on the WS wrote:Have you tried the North Machine? It is based on the Wuantum Tech. As long as the slightly narrow grip fits your mit it is one of the most versatile tools ever built.

NO never tried it....no clue even where to find it!

Nomic.

I have not used the Machine 3.0, but I've swung the Carbon Tech Machine several times and have been blown away. I might like the Carbon Tech Machines better than my X-Dreams.

I've been drooling over the North Machine Carbon for a couple of weeks but have resisted the urge to pick up a set. Anybody want to buy my X-All Mountains?

I know you are comparing Nomics vs. Machine 3.0, but the Tech Machines are more comparable to the Nomics. Buying the Machine 3.0's would be like adding a different set of Vipers to your tool quiver.

I have a lot of time on the Nomics and Tech Machines.

In comparison, Tech Machines compared to Nomics:
- Tech Machines drytool slightly better
- more stable in figure 4's on upper grip
- upper grip is significantly higher (get more out of each match)
- Grivel picks are stickier - I tend to overdrive Petzl picks, which are easy to clean. Switching from Petzl to Grivel this becomes rapidly apparent.
- I like the handle. If you have very wide hands, you may not.
- picks and accessories are cheaper (screw you Petzl)

Steven Kovalenko wrote:I know you are comparing Nomics vs. Machine 3.0, but the Tech Machines are more comparable to the Nomics. Buying the Machine 3.0's would be like adding a different set of Vipers to your tool quiver. I have a lot of time on the Nomics and Tech Machines. In comparison, Tech Machines compared to Nomics: - Tech Machines drytool slightly better - more stable in figure 4's on upper grip - upper grip is significantly higher (get more out of each match) - Grivel picks are stickier - I tend to overdrive Petzl picks, which are easy to clean. Switching from Petzl to Grivel this becomes rapidly apparent. - I like the handle. If you have very wide hands, you may not. - picks and accessories are cheaper (screw you Petzl)

Steve,
Thanks for the detailed insight between those two ice tool options.
I should have added the Tech Machines in this discussion and my consideration. I saw a profile comparison and the tech machines are, just sight alone, looking like Grivel's answer to the Nomics.

I don't have a wide hand, so that shouldn't be an issue in considering the tech machines, however, I'm wondering if I'd prefer the Nomic on the sole basis of being able to dial in the handle area with the slightly adjustable bottom piece of the handle?

I'll also say that the shaft curve on the machine 3.0's do look just like that of the Vipers,.. BUT,.. the handle's drastic angle would definitely change the way the tool would function and respond to the ice and the climber with such a drastically different handle angle. I'm thinking that sole detail is why another on here said it actually climbed over bulges more easily than expected without issues?

so,.. now I have three tools on my radar,....

Nomics
Grivel Tech Machines
grivel Machine 3.0

Phil Schuld wrote:Providing a slightly different point of view. I bought the 3.0's with the intention of using them for what folks have listed above- Ice up to grade 4. I also have the carbon tech machines which I intended to use for 4+ and harder and mixed climbing. As the season played out, I found myself always reaching for the 3.0's as they're such a joy to use due mostly to their natural swing. I've found myself leading terrain up to grade 5 with them with no issues, despite the geometry. I think this is due to the angle of the handle itself rather than the shaft. Much to my surprise, the 3.0's have been great at clearing weird blobby ice features of all types. Definitely my favorite tool I've used and I've used a whole bunch, including Nomics. All that said, I'm not the best or most experienced ice climber. Just offering a different perspective.

"I've found myself leading terrain up to grade 5 with them with no issues, despite the geometry. I think this is due to the angle of the handle itself rather than the shaft. Much to my surprise, the 3.0's have been great at clearing weird blobby ice features of all types. Definitely my favorite tool I've used and I've used a whole bunch, including Nomics."

See, that's what I was wondering whwen I noticed the HANDLES then the shafts,...
first thing I thought was, "I'm gonna bet the angle of the handles makes up for the lack of curve in the shafts?...hmmmm.....??"

Have you looked at the X-Dreams?

JasonSH wrote: "I've found myself leading terrain up to grade 5 with them with no issues, despite the geometry. I think this is due to the angle of the handle itself rather than the shaft. Much to my surprise, the 3.0's have been great at clearing weird blobby ice features of all types. Definitely my favorite tool I've used and I've used a whole bunch, including Nomics." See, that's what I was wondering whwen I noticed the HANDLES then the shafts,... first thing I thought was, "I'm gonna bet the angle of the handles makes up for the lack of curve in the shafts?...hmmmm.....??"

Yeah, due to the handle, I think they clear bulges more easily than any tool I've used. Nothing else comes close. The only feature on which the shaft geometry could be an issue could be blown-out, dog bowl-sized holes. I just did a route yesterday that had these and I found that the shaft would occasionally hit the lip of this feature before the pick could really penetrate. The solution usually ended up being a slightly more mindful swing. I think a more aggressively bent shaft would give you a very slight advantage in such a scenario. Personally, I've rarely climbed routes that are so beat out that these features are present.

Mike-Mayhem wrote:Have you looked at the X-Dreams?

Can't afford them...so they're out!

Steven Kovalenko wrote:I know you are comparing Nomics vs. Machine 3.0, but the Tech Machines are more comparable to the Nomics. Buying the Machine 3.0's would be like adding a different set of Vipers to your tool quiver. I have a lot of time on the Nomics and Tech Machines. In comparison, Tech Machines compared to Nomics: - Tech Machines drytool slightly better - more stable in figure 4's on upper grip - upper grip is significantly higher (get more out of each match) - Grivel picks are stickier - I tend to overdrive Petzl picks, which are easy to clean. Switching from Petzl to Grivel this becomes rapidly apparent. - I like the handle. If you have very wide hands, you may not. - picks and accessories are cheaper (screw you Petzl)

Steven, where do you have the handles set on the nomics with a thinner glove? They are great for me on small when just wearing a liner glove in warm conditions, need to go to medium for gloves in the -15c and below range.

Sadly no one locally stocks the tech machine for me to try out.

Phil Schuld wrote: Yeah, due to the handle, I think they clear bulges more easily than any tool I've used. Nothing else comes close. The only feature on which the shaft geometry could be an issue could be blown-out, dog bowl-sized holes. I just did a route yesterday that had these and I found that the shaft would occasionally hit the lip of this feature before the pick could really penetrate. The solution usually ended up being a slightly more mindful swing. I think a more aggressively bent shaft would give you a very slight advantage in such a scenario. Personally, I've rarely climbed routes that are so beat out that these features are present.

I see.

I have size Medium Alpine Alabie gloves (medium hands) and I'm slightly concerned with, what I've read, as to be a slightly larger handle area on the Grivels? My hand seems near perfect on the Vipers I have but I'm not a fan of the weight of them nor the shaft angle.