Ancient Art Christmas Tree - Common Sense Applies

J.Kruse wrote: naw, his language was really awful and made him look like a jerk like i said. but calling out the internet peanut gallery criticizing you for doing something fun with your friends, i get that. social media facilitates such a great deal of criticism and complaining. if i were them, i would have just done this stunt and left it undocumented. they could have enjoyed it, and we would be none the wiser with no ethics or actions to critique and offer opinions on. but.. if a tree falls in the forest, and no one posts a picture of it on instagram, did it really happen? thus ends my pointless social media opining..

Guess I'm old but social media/internet make it too easy to abandon restraint and say whatever without facing anyone.
Our Pres elect goes into a tweet fit anytime anyone says anything that hurts his feelings. Just seems to be what people do these days.

s.price wrote: Not true. Stupid stunts like this can easily lead to more restrictions on climbing. And definitely paint a negative picture for us all. Again I question the legality of this stunt. Christo has always had his temporary art approved and permitted on public land before he put them in place.

Well are you worried about access or damage to the rock? Maybe something like this risks access more, but guided parties yanking too hard on mud stone does way more damage to the actual rock. I mean I wouldn't be upset if ancient art saw less ascents every year. Once that summit falls over, it won't be the fault of the experienced and competent people who made it a Christmas tree, but rather the 10 bazillion parties who pay go up it just to take the same picture that thousands of other people have. When that happens nobody will be able to climb it anymore.

Danforth wrote:Im certainly not kidding.At no point did I claim they were "equal" but they are certainly comparable. You seem to have missed the point. One publicized stunt can do more damage to our relationships with land managers and therefore our access than thousands of "typical" ascents. I was responding to someone's direct assertion that stunts don't affect our access. I responded by pointing out a very clear example of why that is incorrect.

What Dean Potter was doing was illegal, you aren't allowed to climb on named arches. What these guys doing wasn't. So there is an obvious comparison. I mean, if they had done this to the delicate arch it would be different, but ancient art is already a total circus show.

Kevin DB wrote: Well are you worried about access or damage to the rock? Maybe something like this risks access more, but guided parties yanking too hard on mud stone does way more damage to the actual rock. I mean I wouldn't be upset if ancient art saw less ascents every year. Once that summit falls over, it won't be the fault of the experienced and competent people who made it a Christmas tree, but rather the 10 bazillion parties who pay go up it just to take the same picture that thousands of other people have. When that happens nobody will be able to climb it anymore.

Agreed. I wouldn't be upset if it wasn't climbed at all. Period. And I have never climbed it. Not every beautiful formation needs to be climbed. Funny how people get bent out of shape of rock being defaced. This is America, where atrocities like Mt. Rushmore exist and get celebrated.

I agree with Josh's and doligo's sentiments. If we find inherent value and beauty in the things we climb then we become more willing to put its interests ahead of our current wants. Although I want to climb just about cool looking feature out there, I also appreciate what a few billion years of geology have created. I can always find something else to climb. I can't put the Corkscrew back if it falls over.

I understand that a guide needs a paycheck and that if they don't take their clients out then they don't get paid. However, if you don't have anything to lead your clients up, you don't get paid either. It reminds me of the debate over logging one of the last virgin stand of redwoods here in CA called the Headwaters. Loggers claimed they needed the work; environmentalists argued that when you cut those last trees down, you won't have any work. There are lots of places to climb. However, there are a few rare features that are really special. If we don't consider our mass impact more carefully there will be fewer of them.

How did the poor Jews get dragged into this argument?

Fat Dad wrote:How did the poor Jews get dragged into this argument?

Eli Poss posted how members of his religion (or ethnicity) don't make rock Menorahs.

Then Tom Sherman called everyone here butthurt for possible offense towards the Jews.

Pretty much how they got mentioned. Not a big deal.

Tom Sherman wrote:Butthurt Nation Offending the Jews What else does the baseless pity party have to offer up?

eli poss wrote:You don't see us Jews hanging a menorah on any sensitive desert towers, now do ya? Those guys can shove their christmas lights up their respective butts. .

cragmantoo wrote: Was this comment really necessary and what does it even have to do with the discussion on this thread?

(my response to TS comments)

Fat Dad, This was how...

Some more observations from the peanut gallery.

1) As I noted climbers have a long history of fun such as what was done by the Moab Monkeys. It was not illegal and did not need a permit. So it was not out of line.

Some folks may know of the Super Bowl Party held on the balcony of the Great White Icicle. In addition to the BBQ, there have been couches and hot tub hauled for the event and removed. All perfectly fine with the exception of forgetting about a watershed rule. Which we were gently reminded about by the land managers. But otherwise they were fine with the fun as everything was cleaned up as it should be.

2) It is unfortunate that stuff was left behind. More effort should have been made to clean up.

3) Videos are going to be made, that is all part of today's game. Especially with team "athletes" who need to get their name out there. Overall I thought video was fine. I even laughed at the blue balls joke. The only part that I thought tasteless was the bit at the end - "Merry Christmas Mother Fuckers" I could have done without that.

4) The stress on the top of corkscrew can be noted but to be honest that is specious compared to the daily traffic. Look at the number of folks who mentioned going up a day or two afterwards. At that is December!!

So if I personally look at the totality of what was done that has a direct impact it was the stuff left behind. And all in all that is pretty damn minor in the big scheme of things.

However, I do understand that others will have and do have a differing view point. Further, they are going to express via different forms on social media.

Now here is the big BUT. Andy's response to folks has been totally out of line. Especially as he is a team "athlete" for 5.10 and Gibbon Slacklines. My expectation that a company's athlete should not only be promoting their fun (product) but also responsible usage of the environment in which it is used as well as be spokesperson for that community. Andy's foul mouth respond is so far down on the scale that it is sad. It shows a complete lack of maturity.

If folks have noticed the facebook page is now either deleted or behind a login wall. Which is too bad but then again some folks have preserved it via some images which is good because it should be out there for all - never do anything you would want on a billboard next to the freeway or on the internet.

In the end I would hope that anyone who knows Andy would have a chat with him. Perhaps those those at 5.10 and Gibbon will work with him as in recent times there are multiple examples of team "athletes" doing stupid things and either being fired or reeled in by their sponsors. At his point he needs some education on how to properly respond to criticism.

All Andy needed to do to address this issue was simply to say "Hey we wanted to have some fun, which we did. Sorry some did not like it. Bummer we left some stuff behind. That is on us and we have gone back to clean up anything we missed. Thanks to those that did that already, we owe you a beer. Happy Holidays" Something that simple and this would be behind us. Bummer it did not happen.

BTW do people know a that 1964 Chevy Impala was put on top of Castleton Tower?

youtube.com/watch?v=wvKvP4r…

The model was scared out of her wits.

Kevin DB wrote: What Dean Potter was doing was illegal, you aren't allowed to climb on named arches. What these guys doing wasn't. So there is an obvious comparison. I mean, if they had done this to the delicate arch it would be different, but ancient art is already a total circus show.

Actually, climbing named features is illegal as a result of Dean's stunt. It was not illegal at the time, though it was understood that it was something you shouldn't do.
I think that one aspect most people are missing is that this was done explicitly for publicity. If there wasn't a camera, these guys wouldn't have done it. They are savvy social media marketers who did this stunt solely for its self promotional value. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. (Psst. In this metaphor, the sword is the internet).

Hobo Greg wrote: At least we are having fun when we fuck up the earth, and aren't doing it out of malice like your average national park arsonist (every year someone sparks up a Joshua tree) or graffiti artist.

Having fun? Why didn't you say so? Then it's totally cool to go f-up places, because that makes it OK. BTW, you know the fatties in the RVs are having fun too right?

OK, so here's why you can look down your nose at the "fatties". They either don't get it or don't care. We're supposed to be better than that, which is why we're having this discussion in the first place. Having said that, I totally disagree with your assessment. If you don't value the outdoors, you don't have a right to f- it up. If you don't care about art, you don't bother going to the National Gallery or the Louvre. Similarly, if all you want to do is boulder hard, but don't care about the rock or litter or crowds or the surrounding vegetation because you'll move on to another hobby when climbing gets old, just stay inside. I don't want you permanently altering something that took billions of years to form just because you need something to do or something to post on Snapchat.

Hobo Greg wrote: As for the mud towers, who cares?

The people who have spoken out about it care.

Hobo Greg wrote: So long as fatties in RVs can do whatever they want and get away with it, like selfies with bison, or defacing petroglyphs, or even flying a drone directly into grand prismatic spring, why should dirt bags be singled out?

Dirt bags aren't singled out. There are plenty of people speaking out about activities such as you mentioned.

Another member of the Moab Monkeys, Scott Rogers, came out and apologized/explained their behavior. I think that this whole thing never would have gone anywhere if that had been the initial response to the criticism.

Dave Cummings wrote:Once again Andy Lewis shows his ridiculous attention seeking behavior. Disgracing another iconic formation.

HA HA It's a rock, it's nothing but a rock. Any "iconic" attribution is purely arbitrary.

Nothing about the Xmas tree is any worse than people draggin their feet and arses all over your supposed ICON.

A lot of you folk should really get over yourselves.
we climb rocks, that's no big deal, stop being so self righteous and sanctimonious

Squeak wrote: HA HA It's a rock, it's nothing but a rock. Any "iconic" attribution is purely arbitrary. Nothing about the Xmas tree is any worse than people draggin their feet and arses all over your supposed ICON. A lot of you folk should really get over yourselves. we climb rocks, that's no big deal, stop being so self righteous and sanctimonious

Maybe go back and read the thread and see what people are concerned about?

Marc801 wrote: Maybe go back and read the thread and see what people are concerned about?

I have, they are unfounded

HA HA, clearly you don't get it. The fact that many others have expressed an opinion contrary to yours does not mean they are "unfounded". You just disagree with them. If you believe that it's just a rock, and has no other inherent value then you are little more than a cynic. You know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Fat Dad wrote:HA HA, clearly you don't get it. The fact that many others have expressed an opinion contrary to yours does not mean they are "unfounded". You just disagree with them. If you believe that it's just a rock, and has no other inherent value then you are little more than a cynic. You know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Wrong on all counts.
All that's being displayed here is personal bias. We have no more claim to the use than any other approved group or activity.
To believe otherwise is elitist and snobbery.

Allen Sanderson wrote:BTW do people know a that 1964 Chevy Impala was put on top of Castleton Tower? youtube.com/watch?v=wvKvP4r… The model was scared out of her wits.

No Allen, these kids don't know. They also didn't know that Chevy left a bunch of lumber up there from the crating of the car. From which Chuck Pratt spelled 'Fuck You' for the tourist flights to see. I personally think most of these guys just need a drum to beat. The stunt was cool I thought.