Arc'Teryx prices??

Bill Kirby wrote: I bought my Dually ten years ago after the second day ice climbing. I wore it Saturday and Sunday as the temps were between 10-20 degrees. The belay jacket is just as warm and waterproof as the day I got it. I've worn the Dually in -21 temps. I've worn it after the jacket got wet. It's always warm. Could I get a better deal or two $300 coats? Sure but I look good. Ray, haha..

I agree synthetic parkas rock for the conditions you're describing, ie northeast ice climbing. I've also worn a DAS in conditions that weren't meant to sustain human life. My only point is the Dually doesn't offer twice the performance. It's a nice piece and I might buy one someday but for a typical young guy getting into ice climbing, struggling to buy tools, screws etc.. this is a reasonable place to save a few bucks IMO.

The Dually is made with Climashield Prism, a continuous filament which has some notable advantages over Primaloft Gold. Continuous means fewer seams to hold it in place (ie less cold spots) and increased durability with repeated packing. Disadvantages are it's bulkier than PL Gold and doesn't compress as small. PL Gold has a higher initial clo value. Arc uses Coreloft (more similar to PL Gold) in its more fitted garments. In the sleeping bag/quilt industry everyone uses Climashield.

So yeah, I definitely believe the Dually would be more durable than the typical 60g PL micropuffies everyone is always complaining pack out with little use. Yours may very well be nearly as warm as it was 10 years ago if you treated it relatively nicely (ie don't constantly sleep in it, keep it stuffed in a sack, use it as a pillow etc..). I don't think this stuff will be as durable as down but better than most people expect.

The PL Silver Hi-Loft in the DAS and Stance is also continuous filament. The online cognoscenti like to complain about the use of Silver instead of Gold but I suspect there's a reason they did it (not just lining their pockets).

I will say i own a few pieces of dead bird stuff and honestly it really comes down to fit for me. As much as i hate to drop the coin, having something comfortable and fits well is worth it. I hate having to adjust pants under a harness after every pitch, etc.

Dont get me wrong, i shop around and look for last years stuff and cheapen the hurt as much as possible.

I do find the product quality stellar and is on par with patagonia and a couple others.

I will say that i do like Sherpa Adventure Gear as a close or equal alternative to DBS (Dead Bird Shit)

My biggest thing is fit. All XXLs aren't made the same. Some aren't XXL, some are made for short guys with a large beer belly and some for thin guys that are 6'6". My Dually fits like a 3XL. It's long, big in the shoulders and the sleeves aren't too long. My measurements are 56 in chest and a 38 waist. Most climbing companies make stuff for climbers not NFL linebackers. The Dually fit well so I bought it for full price. Probably the only piece I've paid full bang for,

I was told that unless you're somewhere that's really cold and dry down will get you in trouble.

My Arc pieces are the best fitting outdoor gear I own. Their hoods are particularly excellent over a helmet. I'm not sure fit is as critical in a belay parka as in a midlayer that you regularly move/climb in and has to go over/under other stuff as part of a layering scheme, but it's certainly very nice and sometimes like you say nothing else will come close.

D-Roc wrote:I will say i own a few pieces of dead bird stuff and honestly it really comes down to fit for me. As much as i hate to drop the coin, having something comfortable and fits well is worth it.

Exactly. Of note, I never buy Arc gear unless I'm getting a hefty discount. I only paid $100 for my Fortrez jacket, $175 for by Beta LT Hybrid, and $155 for my Atom LT. These prices aren't hard to get if you keep an eye out and jump on them as soon as a good price comes by.

Patagonia prices continue to creep closer to Arc'teryx. The Grade VII parka ($900). The Super Alpine ($600).

There are some reasonably priced Arc pieces that perform better than other similar jackets. The Nuclei FL ($250) is maybe the best UL synthetic belay jacket available. The Atom LT ($260) is a now classic.

I recently got a Proton LT Hoody ($300) to replace a worn out Nano Air Hoody ($300). I like it better. 50% heavier weight face fabric than the Nano Air makes it more durable and weather resistant as an outer layer. Apparently uses Climashield Apex (.82 clo/oz: exactly the same as their regular Coreloft), vs the Nano Air's FullRange (Toray 3DeFX+ = .56 clo/oz) [vs Polartec Alpha at .28 clo/oz = just buy a Thermal Pro fleece @ .19-.21 clo/oz], and I can still blow through the jacket easily. It has the same awesome cuffs as the Atom LT. It's not nearly as stretchy as the Nano Air, but it's cut well enough to be irrelevant to me. Weighs an ounce more that the Nano Air.

Brian Abram wrote: I recently got a Proton LT Hoody ($300) to replace a worn out Nano Air Hoody ($300). I like it better. 50% heavier weight face fabric than the Nano Air makes it more durable and weather resistant as an outer layer. Apparently uses Climashield Apex (.82 clo/oz: exactly the same as their regular Coreloft), vs the Nano Air's FullRange (.56 clo/oz), and I can still blow through the jacket easily. It has the same awesome cuffs as the Atom LT. It's not nearly as stretchy as the Nano Air, but it's cut well enough to be irrelevant to me. Weighs an ounce more that the Nano Air.

Very interesting. Does it say Apex on the tag somewhere? Climashield hasn't listed the Proton yet:

climashield.com/shop-outdoor

I'm going to have a look at the Proton. Nano Air doesn't seem burly enough for climbing to me though super comfy. BD Firstlight was too tight in the forearms for me and not stretchy like the Nano Air.

jdejace wrote: Does it say Apex on the tag somewhere?

No, just industry chatter saying "coreloft continuous" is Apex. Arc'teryx uses treated Climashield Prism as their Thermatek, just as Patagonia's FullRange is Toray 3DeFX+, used by other companies like KUIU

youtube.com/watch?v=ZluBb1k…

In an active insulation piece like the Proton, Nano Air, or Rab Strata, clo probably doesn't matter too much as there's so much air exchange through the garment. But if you do throw a belay jacket or a shell over it, shutting down much of that air exchange, I'd expect the Proton to be much warmer for its weight than the other options. As it's a continuous fiber that degrades more slowly, I expect the Proton to wind up being as warm or warmer with some use than a comparable jacket using Primaloft Gold or classic Coreloft.

Colin Haley reportedly wore nothing on his legs but the Nano Air Light Pant with the DAS pant on the Infinite Spur. The Galvanized Pant, designed to be used with the Nano Air Light Pant, completely negates the point of the Nano Air Light Pant if you pair them regularly. Just as the Stretch Nano Storm Jacket is dumb. Patagonia needs a KnifeRidge pant or some other softshell designed to pair with the Nano Air Light Pant. Or a durable softshell outer pant with FullRange similar to the old Northwall.

The Nano Air Light Pant on Infinite Spur:

Arc'teryx has "pant" version of the Proton LT, called the Axino. Unfortunately, it's a 21" inseam ostensibly designed to use as a midlayer with ski boots. If they made a 30" inseam version I could use as an outer layer without getting snow and wet in my boots I'd be really interested.

Sorry for the thread drift

jdejace wrote: BD Firstlight was too tight in the forearms for me and not stretchy like the Nano Air.

Interesting you note that, I have a few BD pieces and got last years Access LT hoody as a cheap (less insulated) alternative to an Atom LT. I found that I can only wear a thin base an grid fleece under it before the forearms become too tight. Rest of it fits perfectly. You'd think BD would have tailored their fit a bit better for popeye forearms.

I agree with Brian about normal prices on some good products. I absolutely love the original nuclei (now called the FL) for alpine rock. It's ridiculously light for the warmth and is still breathable enough to move in. I've worn it on a few pitches when snow started falling, while benighted more than a couple times, and even done a planned bivy with it and no bag. For summer alpine routes all I bring now is a t shirt, BD alpine start, and the nuclei.

Will echo points about fit, details, & quality. They have always been the best fit for a skinny to athletic build. A few of their top end jackets were also made in Canada (though that could have changed, I don't keep track) and I figure that's worth a premium.

I was also amazed by one of their running shirts that I wore backpacking. Sweated heavily in it for a week, and it never smelled and I was never uncomfortably sticky when I laid down to sleep (which is otherwise typical for me).

As others have said, there's plenty of other good stuff out there, but deadbird is clearly excellent quality.

Your price-performance tradeoff is something only you can answer.

Snagged a procline carbon support boot for only $650 US, including shipping, from Pyrenees Telemark (French website) a few days ago.

Sweet ass double plastic climbing boot with real skiing ability. So pumped to try them out this winter/spring

I have this problem in jackets that they tend to pull up out of my harness when climbing. Arcteryx stuff stays nicely tucked in no matter how high I reach.

I don't know if it is just that the other brands (MH is the worst) are cut too short or have too much arm lift or what.

Has anyone found another brand that is good for folks perhaps a little long in the torso for their size? I'd gladly pay arcteryx dollars to avoid this problem but man, their prices border on ridiculous.

brian9 wrote:I have this problem in jackets that they tend to pull up out of my harness when climbing. Arcteryx stuff stays nicely tucked in no matter how high I reach. I don't know if it is just that the other brands (MH is the worst) are cut too short or have too much arm lift or what. Has anyone found another brand that is good for folks perhaps a little long in the torso for their size? I'd gladly pay arcteryx dollars to avoid this problem but man, their prices border on ridiculous.

Most of their shell jackets have a small foam tube running trough the bottom to block them from riding up past the harness. Clever, and I'm yet to finally another brand that does that. They must have a patent on it or something.

Another vote for the fit and unprecedented warranty service. I've had a pack completely replaced because of a busted zipper. And my Cerium jacket outperforms any coat of similar weight. You get what you pay for, as the old adage goes.

I don't think twice about dropping bank on dead bird when it's a piece that will keep me alive because of exposure or critical application. I am by no means a wealthy individual. I consider these kinds of purchases an investment. The customer service, in my experience, is top notch.

Those $900 insulated shells are made for people skiing the resort who can afford a trip to Telluride or Aspen, so 900 isn't much for them to have a nice warm shell with the bird on it. But their technical gear is definitely worth the price if you can afford it. Their customer service and repair/replacement policy are also top notch, as I've experienced firsthand. I don't think I've ever bought anything from Arcteryx at full price though...

Part of Arc'Teryx's premium price is due to R&D. They've helped develop a ton of features that are now commonly available (thermoformed pack straps, waterproof zippers,Gore-Tex, Warp &Weft Harnesses). R&D costs a lot when you're the one breaking new ground.

I've had the opposite of a good experience with their customer service. I spent two months trying to send back a $550 jacket and they repaired one tiny delam and didn't deal with anything else. I bought it because their rep said their warrant rivaled Patagonia.

When I finally got them to take it back after multiple emails for repairs they sent me an estimate for 256 bucks, or they would be happy to help me pick out a new jacket and I could pay full price for it.

They were the best motivation for me to buy from employee owned companies like Patagonia, forever, who actually have a great warranty and customer service.

My bitter 2 cents.

JF1 wrote:I've had the opposite of a good experience with their customer service. I spent two months trying to send back a $550 jacket and they repaired one tiny delam and didn't deal with anything else. I bought it because their rep said their warrant rivaled Patagonia. When I finally got them to take it back after multiple emails for repairs they sent me an estimate for 256 bucks, or they would be happy to help me pick out a new jacket and I could pay full price for it. They were the best motivation for me to buy from employee owned companies like Patagonia, forever, who actually have a great warranty and customer service. My bitter 2 cents.

What other repairs were needed?

Danforth wrote:Part of Arc'Teryx's premium price is due to R&D. They've helped develop a ton of features that are now commonly available (thermoformed pack straps, waterproof zippers,Gore-Tex, Warp &Weft Harnesses). R&D costs a lot when you're the one breaking new ground.

Arc'Teryx did not develop Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex was developed by a medical device company based out of Arizona, they're still there. They have lots of money sunk into the R&D, there, that is why it is so expensive to license anything saying "Gore". If you look into any other manufacturers' garments made of Gore-Tex, they're pretty similar in price to ArcTeryx. That is why a lot of companies try to come up with cheaper in-house alternatives (Patagonia's H2No, MH's DryQ, etc.)

doligo wrote:Gore-Tex was developed by a medical device company based out of Arizona, they're still there.

Source? If this is true, I'd be interested to read about it.

My understanding is that the material was developed by the W.L. Gore company of Newark DE.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rober…

In 1969, Bob Gore was researching a process for stretching extruded PTFE into pipe thread tape when he discovered that the polymer could be "expanded" into a porous form of PTFE, characterized by extremely high strength and porosity. He and others had attempted to stretch rods of PTFE by about 10%. His discovery of the right conditions for stretching PTFE was a happy accident, born partly of frustration. Instead of slowly stretching the heated material, he applied a sudden, accelerating yank. The solid PTFE unexpectedly stretched about 800%, forming a microporous structure that was about 70% air.[4]

A patent application for expanded PTFE was filed on May 21, 1970, and eventually two separate patents were issued, one for the product, and another for the processes for making the product.

PTFE (teflon) itself was discovered some years earlier, supposedly by a DuPont employee.