Trango Raptor ice tool recall

David, can you confirm how long the dyneema sling was that you tethered to the tool with? Shoulder-length (24")? Double shoulder-length (48")? Were you tethered into both tools or did you temporarily clip into your tool while looking to place a screw?

To be honest, hearing some of the details of the accident make me feel a little better about the Raptors (I was worried at first they broke with a Spinner leash or similar). I sorta wonder if it might have been a good thing they failed (internal body injuries start to occur at ~10kN, right?), broken tool is better than a broken pelvis.

I think I remember reading that the X-Dream handle isn't rated for any type of fall. (Not that I don't appreciate Trango wanting to put a full-strength spike on the Raptor...) I do wonder how many other tools would have held under similar conditions (and if holding would actually be a good thing).

Props to Trango for doing the recall

This is a relevant article about strength of tools:
coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

If I'm reading that right, it sounds like BD tools have an end to end pull strength of 2000 lbs (9kN).

Meanwhile, this site claims that a Factor 1 fall onto a 24" dyneema sling can generate 16.7kN : iotaclimbing.co.uk/fallfact… (Not sure how closely that represents real life in this case, though, and drop tests can be misleading. But in theory, if David was clipped into his lower tool with a shoulder-length sling, I could see Factor 1 being in the ballpark.)

Mike Larrick wrote:So the pommel failed or further up the tool? I got my tools last January, before this recall, almost nothing but good things to say about them. I will say I tried using the spike on the end to unscrew a screw on my crampon in a pinch, and the tip sheared right off. Ever since that I've been a little reticent to trust the pommel more than just hiking up low angle stuff.

Apparently the head popped off.

Rob Duckles wrote:David, can you confirm how long the dyneema sling was that you tethered to the tool with? Shoulder-length (24")? Double shoulder-length (48")? Were you tethered into both tools or did you temporarily clip into your tool while looking to place a screw? To be honest, hearing some of the details of the accident make me feel a little better about the Raptors (I was worried at first they broke with a Spinner leash or similar). I sorta wonder if it might have been a good thing they failed (internal body injuries start to occur at ~10kN, right?), broken tool is better than a broken pelvis. I think I remember reading that the X-Dream handle isn't rated for any type of fall. (Not that I don't appreciate Trango wanting to put a full-strength spike on the Raptor...) I do wonder how many other tools would have held under similar conditions (and if holding would actually be a good thing). Props to Trango for doing the recall

Yeah, I had similar thoughts. I have a pair that are part of the recall. I'll be sending them in, hopefully for replacements. Great tools. I'll have to switch back to my 1Gs if I find any more ice this season.

"to clip a tool like pro, seems like theres no way it would hold a fall... not to mention taking a dynamic fall on a dyneema sling?"

As a matter of fact, we clip into pro all the time in trad climbing. What makes ice climbing any different? Clipping into tools temporarily is pretty much like clipping into a cam or a nut. The load rating for an ice tool is similar to the rating for a nut or cam. And it's a lot safer than taking a lead fall onto your last screw, even if the screw is only 2 ft. away.

Regarding dynamic loading onto dyneema slings... most climbers do this regularly without questioning the practice. The alpine draws we all use for both ice and trad climbing are usually slung with dyneema slings. Any fall we take on them would be a dynamic fall. FYI, the tether I used was a 3 ft. dyneema sling.

David Carrier wrote:"to clip a tool like pro, seems like theres no way it would hold a fall... not to mention taking a dynamic fall on a dyneema sling?" As a matter of fact, we clip into pro all the time in trad climbing. What makes ice climbing any different? Clipping into tools temporarily is pretty much like clipping into a cam or a nut. The load rating for an ice tool is similar to the rating for a nut or cam. And it's a lot safer than taking a lead fall onto your last screw, even if the screw is only 2 ft. away. Regarding dynamic loading onto dyneema slings... most climbers do this regularly without questioning the practice. The alpine draws we all use for both ice and trad climbing are usually slung with dyneema slings. Any fall we take on them would be a dynamic fall. FYI, the tether I used was a 3 ft. dyneema sling.

I think saying people clip directly into pro "all the time" is a bit misleading. Climbers definitely do it, but more often people place pro and then take on the rope. There is a difference. One places the rope in the system, the other does not. Climbers do not typically put dynamic loads directly onto slings, dyneema or nylon. Gear slung with dyneema still has the rope in the system. If you are directly and dynamically loading a sling, you are doing it wrong. Even when using daisies to aid climb, we go to great lengths to prevent daisy falls.

It might be safer to (statically) load your ice tool with a sling than taking a fall onto an ice screw, but I think the point many are making is that it is really safer to not climb into a position that this should be necessary at all. I guess it's up to each climber to decide if pushing their limits while ice climbing is worth the risk involved in either falling or hanging on their gear/tools. For me personally, I feel like I have drastically pushed things too far if I get to the point where I need to hang while ice climbing.

Typical mountainproject thread...

Christoph and Kyle, understood what common practice is, I was responding to the "^^^^" post directly above quoted "Now I clip the rope directly into the carabiner on my ice tool"

Couple thoughts:
I'm not talking of the strength of an ice tool at all (oddly, because by thread title, that should be what this thread is about). I am speaking of the type of placement an ice tool is. It's essentially an aid placement, innately not pro. Yeah ok I'm sure you can bury one to the hilt and have some luck. But for more realistic sake it's not gonna work well as the rope is flossing it during a fall. Show me the video of the aid guys clipping a skyhook as pro???

Secondly, I've put about two second of thought to it, so excuse me if I'm wrong... But WTF is anyone talking fall factors for? Fall factors don't apply to static loading if I am not mistaken. If you fall the x-length of your dyneema sling that's about the force generated in that x-length.

Hold on, I'm gonna re-read and mine some more gold out of this thread...

David Carrier wrote:As a matter of fact, we clip into pro all the time in trad climbing. What makes ice climbing any different? Clipping into tools temporarily is pretty much like clipping into a cam or a nut.

David Carrier wrote:Regarding dynamic loading onto dyneema slings... most climbers do this regularly without questioning the practice. The alpine draws we all use for both ice and trad climbing are usually slung with dyneema slings. Any fall we take on them would be a dynamic fall.

Holy fuck everything david says has troll on it?
Did I just get scammed?

With due respect, understand that a tool is not as solidly set as all the different types of pro are designed to be, the action of the rope in a fall will most certainly affect the tools ability to hold anything.

I don't know how to respond to the second quote. I think CSproul has you covered.

csproul wrote:I think the point many are making is that it is really safer to not climb into a position that this should be necessary at all. I guess it's up to each climber to decide if pushing their limits while ice climbing is worth the risk involved in either falling or hanging on their gear/tools. For me personally, I feel like I have drastically pushed things too far if I get to the point where I need to hang while ice climbing.

Yeah here is the point here. It shouldn't be common practice to try to hangdog leading ice, on gear or tools, that's getting yourself into a very dark place. That's how I took my only lil-baby lead fall on ice, tool blew when I rested on it.

So an Ice Spectre.. Pro or Aid?

I've beaten one into frozen turf hoping it would catch me if that NE top out goes wrong.

Bill Kirby wrote: So an Ice Spectre.. Pro or Aid? I've beaten one into frozen turf hoping it would catch me if that NE top out goes wrong.

Spectre in frozen turf = Pro
Spectre in dry frozen turf = Psychological pro (how did you get it to stay?)
Hammered in a crack = Pro
In ice = Find out for me, I don't know

A Spectre is only aid if you "AID" on it, no?

I'm also wondering about that Spectre ripping out and flying down the rope to meet you at your lowest.

Luc, interested to find with what connotation you intended to use "lowest" =)

Luc wrote: Spectre in frozen turf = Pro Spectre in dry frozen turf = Psychological pro (how did you get it to stay?) Hammered in a crack = Pro In ice = Find out for me, I don't know A Spectre is only aid if you "AID" on it, no? I'm also wondering about that Spectre ripping out and flying down the rope to meet you at your lowest.

Just saying if you've used a Spectre then using an ice tool seems acceptable.

I discussed with my friend David his technique of clipping the spike when placing a screw. My subsequent web inquiries did not result in much positive to recommend it. I lean toward the thought that a leash with even a little slack in it results in a considerable shock load on the anchor, in this case at the most stressed point where the head meets the shaft.
David, imagine setting the other Raptor in a tree trunk and dropping a hundred pound load a mere 1 foot on a dyneema sling and watch what happens. If you must, the rope (in lieu of leash) passed thru a biner on the spike would reduce impact load on the anchor due to length of dynamic rope. The added risk is more length of rope out from your last screw, and fuddling with a biner and clipping.
Is this your first fall onto a clipped tool? If so your failue rate is 100%. For safety in a gripped pose, a technique which assures no shock load on the tool is a must. Alternately, as other posters have indicated, not relying on clipping a tool for temporary pro seems a better way, thru route selection, preparing a stance for screw placement, physical conditioning, bomber tool/foot placement, etc.
Note that any dyneema in the system does little to create dynamicity in the system due to minimal elasticity. That function is provided by the rope. There was little dynamic material in your incident between the tool and your harness, ecxept the separation of the head from the shaft!

I had a similar problem with my raptors, that is with the head coming loose. I was dry tooling with it in Vail and after a stein I started to notice some wobble on it. Showed it to the people at the Trango tent in Ourey during the ice fest and they gave me their personal contact. Fortunately I live about 15 minutes from their HQ so I went and got mine refunded pretty readily. Great tools. Will probably purchase another pair once they are back in stock. A real bummer for the season though...

I think they're back in stock.

Brassmonkey wrote:Just got my replacements yesterday. Does anybody else feel like the new ones are significantly heavier or is it just me? Felt like they beefed up where the shaft and head intersect which could make some sense.

I didn't notice that. The rivets looked different, though.

I was not involved in the recall with the dates that I had purchased my raptors...

yesterday was out climbing and this happened!

Dang!

contacted trango and they have already tried to rectify the situation.

Took less than 30 mins of email to get the ball rolling.

Good customer service.

Yeah, definitely interested in the way this broke. Yikes!

I assume these are still pre recall tools though?