5.15 on gear?

Jake Jones wrote: Can we please also unleash the firing squad on "pinkpoint"?

NEVER!!!!
If you don't want to distinguish between redpoint and pinkpoint for your climbing, that's fine. But don't you start telling others not to just because you don't like the term.

Aerosmith is in favor of Pink:

https://youtu.be/e25tN55Frpg

Eli, you do know where the term 'redpoint' came from right? And therefore you know why the concept of 'pinkpoint' really makes little sense, right?

the schmuck wrote:Eli, you do know where the term 'redpoint' came from right? And therefore you know why the concept of 'pinkpoint' really makes little sense, right?

Yay history lesson: German climbers marking their projects at the base with a red dot in the FJ, claiming them from other climbers until they sent it.

RE: climbing.com/places/the-ger…

Right, but definitions evolve and change.

the schmuck wrote:Eli, you do know where the term 'redpoint' came from right? And therefore you know why the concept of 'pinkpoint' really makes little sense, right?

I did not know the history behind the term red point until now. I'm not sure understand what that has to do with pinkpointing.

For many climbers, there may be little difference, if any, between a redpoint and a pinkpoint. However, for me, the difference can be huge. When sport climbing, I often find myself unable to reach bolts from the stance one is intended to clip from because I am a short climber (5'4) with a negative ape index. So instead of being protected, I have to make a move off the ledge or stance to clip the bolt, often while cruxing out. If the draws are already hung, I can usually make the clip from the stance. That makes climbs more difficult mentally, and also physically if I have to spend time clipping while pumping out.

Again, if you choose not to distinguish between redpoint and pinkpoint, that's fine and nobody is asking you to. But don't tell me it "makes little sense" or belittle me for using the term pinkpoint.

Sigh...pinkpoint was invented by American climbers in the early 90s as a term of ridicule for sport climbing tactics, but you can call a no-onsight/non-flash send whatever you want. :-)

Can we belittle people for hijacking threads to talk about pinkpointing?

Certainly! I deserve to be ridiculed...

Okay just to be clear because its all muddy water to me we have 3 terms floating around the climbing world red, pink, and green point. Can you please correct me if I'm wrong, also add in others of they are missing.

Red Point: a climb (trad) claimed as a first ascent project
Pink Point: a sport climb first ascent project
Green Point: A hippie's first ascent. seriously though WTF is a green point?

Then we can finally get back to the OP topic.

a pinkpoint is getting a route clean on pre-placed gear. i.e. a sport climb with the draws already clipped in to the wall. not sure if its clean on the first go or clean period.

Daniel T wrote:Okay just to be clear because its all muddy water to me we have 3 terms floating around the climbing world red, pink, and green point. Can you please correct me if I'm wrong, also add in others of they are missing. Red Point: a climb (trad) claimed as a first ascent project Pink Point: a sport climb first ascent project Green Point: A hippie's first ascent. seriously though WTF is a green point? Then we can finally get back to the OP topic.

That is incorrect. "A redpoint is when you send a pitch on lead that you have climbed before," (as stated above) except if you care about pinkpoints, then a red point does not have preplaced draws or gear/protection.

A pinkpoint is like a redpoint except the gear is still in the rock for trad or the draws are already hanging for sport. Although people seem to not like this term, it's useful for cragging. For example, if I climb a route first, I'll ask if my partner wants to "pink" the route. That is, we'll pull the rope and not worry about cleaning the gear, and they can lead it with hanging draws. It saves time and we don't really care about a red vs pinkpoint.

A greenpoint is new to me, but from context clues it seems like trad leading a climb that was previously a sport climb? Ala black bean? Correct me if I'm wrong.

cyclestupor wrote: So in your world, you aren't really climbing full on trad unless you have never been on the route before, or it's been so long that you forgot what gear you used?

YES.

So if all the trad gear is already in the wall like a pink point for sport... is it still a trad climb?

I mean it is technically on gear so you have to call it trad right? I bet if someone can find a 5.15 and rappel down the route pre-place gear everywhere they can find a spot they could lead it that way and get a 5.15 trad.

My favorite is Highpointing. When you take a hit and don't exhale until you top out.

This thread is hopelessly highjacked at this point so I will add some useless banter as I am working a night shift and I am bored.

In a really old copy of John Sherman's guide to Hueco Tanks he talks about "brown ring" ascents. This was a catch all term he used to describe anything that was dubious ethically, like using a cheater stone, toproping a boulder problem that was too scary to do ground up, cleaning a landing that had an ankle breaking stone, etc. I think he threw all of sport climbing in there as well (I also think that he coined the phrase "sport climbing is neither").

My point is that some crusty old fart is always going to bag on any style of ascent that he or she thinks is not pure enough. Five fifteen will be climbed on gear in the next few years, but it isn't going to be a ground up, on sight, purely traditional ascent. It will involve lots of inspection, numerous attempts, beta sussing, a true sport climbing project mentality. That's how our sport has evolved since the mid eighties. I also think it's part of the reason that the Europeans kick our ass so repeatedly as they don't have this weird hang up over useless definitions.

Ancent wrote: A greenpoint is new to me, but from context clues it seems like trad leading a climb that was previously a sport climb? Ala black bean? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It refers to leading a sport climb on gear. The climb is not previously a sport climb, it's currently a sport climb. If it was previousaly sport, then that means it's currently trad and thus you're just leading a trad climb on trad. However, it's a BS term that the magazine cronies coined to sound flashy and it's best abandon. "Green" implies some form of eco-friendly parameter such as reduced emissions or alternative energy. There is nothing eco-friendly about leading a sport climb on gear.

Crikey, there is no '___point' nonsense in trad climbing. You either got an an FA, onsight FA, onsight ascent or you didn't. No need to make it any more complicated than that as the fifty shades of grey are irrelevant past your facebook posts.

Pre-placing gear is just sport climbing without a drill.

That all said, at 5.14, sport and trad essentially combine in terms of tactics out of sheer necessity, biomechanics and physics. The odds of a multipitch 5.15 onsight trad FA with no previewing or cleaning are pretty much nil and, when you've left the realm of onsight FAs, you've left trad climbing for high-end sprad climbing. Again, not good, not bad, just what it is by necessity.

Healyje wrote:Crikey, there is no '___point' nonsense in trad climbing. You either got an an FA, onsight FA, onsight ascent or you didn't. No need to make it any more complicated than that as the fifty shades of grey are irrelevant past your facebook posts.

Crikey dude, havent you ever just SENT a route you had been trying for a long while? Since you dont preplace like a sport-wanky that would be a redpoint, facebook or no facebook.

Healyje wrote:That all said, at 5.14, sport and trad essentially combine in terms of tactics out of sheer necessity, biomechanics and physics. The odds of a multipitch 5.15 onsight trad FA with no previewing or cleaning are pretty much nil and, when you've left the realm of onsight FAs, you've left trad climbing for high-end sprad climbing. Again, not good, not bad, just what it is by necessity.

+1
This.