Devils Lake Top Rope Etiquette

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This sounds so irresponsible and stupid. I couldn't imagine just walking up to a random rope and start climbing on it. The anchor could literally have been anything and they wouldn't have known. There are a lot of gumbies out there.

About the only explanation I can think of is if the CMC were there. They tend to take over the East Rampart and set topropes on everything, and if you're climbing with them, you can jump on just about anything. Maybe he thought you were with them?

To answer the two original questions from the first post, me and yes. It is common practice to get on any TR hanging at the Lake. This has been a standard local ethic for longer than my tenure here.

I have and will continue to do the same into the future. This is also reciprocal, you can feel free anytime to get on my rope if you are comfortable doing so.

If you would like to talk more about it or have any additional questions, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer all of them for what the local ethics are at ";The Lake";.

so sockhoppin' is a thing in WI?! awright! gotta get back there for some more blindfolded communal quartzite TR actions!

Jon, after overseeing the clusterfuck thread, you couldn't possibly be serious.

I am serious. To be honest about the Cluster thread, even the most F'd up anchors on there they are not failing and people are not getting hurt. That being said, I saw a climber already on the TR in question and I thought they were part of the hoofers social that was going on in the same general area. There were a half dozen or more ropes up and it was a standard free for all type of a day before the damn rain came!

I know right, that's the best part Seth!

Ted Pinson wrote:About the only explanation I can think of is if the CMC were there. They tend to take over the East Rampart and set topropes on everything, and if you're climbing with them, you can jump on just about anything. Maybe he thought you were with them?

I think that kinda puts a negative hue on the CMC in it's wording. They certainly couldn't take over the whole rampart. The most ropes I've ever seen with them on a busy outing was 12 or so. They split into different groups if if gets more than that.

But I have found them to be very enjoyable to join up with either for the whole day, or if you're just in the same area. Very easy way to get well into the double digits in number of routes for the day - - and we'll often just pull the ropes and use them to lead the climbs without needing to build anchors. (Mind you, leading on one of Pete Cleveland's potentially 30 year old ropes is not super confidence inducing)

I do find it easier to pull a TR rope from the top- but I guess if I really needed to get out of there and didn't want to wait for someone climbing it while I hike to the top- I'd pull the rope from the bottom first just to take away the temptation from others...

see blind TR failure at Turkey Rocks, CO. last week? femur-snap/facial bash? I mean, ha, who doesn't hop on the nearest hangin' rope?

jon jugenheimer wrote:To answer the two original questions from the first post, me and yes. It is common practice to get on any TR hanging at the Lake. This has been a standard local ethic for longer than my tenure here. I have and will continue to do the same into the future. This is also reciprocal, you can feel free anytime to get on my rope if you are comfortable doing so. If you would like to talk more about it or have any additional questions, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer all of them for what the local ethics are at ";The Lake";.

Wow! I know that climbers have been open to sharing ropes and routes at the lake, ,,but has it really come to just jumping on an open rope without first asking or checking in? Seriously? I've really missed out on the 'ethics' of DL in the new millennium I guess.
Since I've probably been atop the East Rampart myself to set up my rope(s), I've probably eyeballed each rope and belay and know which ones I'm not comfortable with getting on board. And when breaking down my climbs for the day,,since I'm too lazy to haul the rope bag up top, and haul up the rope to bag it,,,,I pull my rope down after last climb so an unplanned climber wont' just hop on board while I'm cleaning the anchors. Often there are others already waiting to set up a rope that quick. I try to get up and take my gear out of the way as soon as I can to get it collected.

I heard this exchange all go down today (I was the goofball doing a saddlebags rap over moldy). It was SO windy that I was concerned that the communication wasn't happening.

So yeah, BCarver, it is common for large groups to take up a large number of routes sort of "in a row." It can be hard for those group members to discern who's rope belongs to who. Thank you for taking the precaution of pulling on the rope a little before fully breaking down the anchor - you prevented a potential mishap and learned a bit of DL east rampart know-how.

And if if makes you feel better, I went "shopping" today for pics of clusterf**k anchors and yours' was rad, I took no pics of it =)

Seth Jones wrote:I'm all about sharing ropes so we can all get in more routes but I definitely wouldn't get on one without at least talking to the owner first.

This is how i operate at the lake. I'd be a little put off if someone hopped onto my rope that was just hanging there without a word, but sharing anchors just makes sense when you're trying to get the laps in.

I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt since there are many groups that come and set up a row of TRs for a day they may have just gotten confused about which ropes belonged to their group.

I think what folks who weren't there are missing is that there was one large group spread out from Anemia to Horticulture, and Carver chose to toss another rope into the midst of this (perhaps without realizing it was all one group?). It is not surprising that people who were climbing with the group thought everything hanging there was group gear. It was an understandable case of mistaken identity.

It has also long been a norm among Lake regulars that large groups avoid the East Rampart - the CMC does a pretty good job of this, and seldom climbs as a group this big anyway. With the recent changes at Hoofers, things there seem to have slipped - hopefully this will be corrected. That said, if there was a day to violate the norms, a quiet day with rock wet from blowing mist was the day to do it - there were large sections of the East Rampart that were empty.

Keep in mind that groups that are not "regulars" - scout groups, church groups, new guides - have always violated the norm.

Look i get it... it is the ethic bla bla bla and if is "ok" to do it because everyone does it and it has been done for ages. Regardless of ethic or not, I and a lot of climber i know still do not agree with just climbing on other peoples ropes without asking permission as a common curtesy (if u cant find that person to ask then dont climb on the rope), let alone the safety question. That anchor fails... who owns that responsability legally? Moreover, IMHO you shouldnt set multiple ropes that you are not immediatey climbing on (CMC or not). That is by far the absolute most obnoxious thing ever and should have never started in the first place.

In this case, sounds like Jon was mistaken and was pretty cool about getting off the rope, but there have been times when people will just sit there and run laps on your rope regardless if you have to leave or whatever else. It is just completey uncool and i think that "ethic" is not very ethical.

Sean Peter wrote: I think that kinda puts a negative hue on the CMC in it's wording. They certainly couldn't take over the whole rampart. The most ropes I've ever seen with them on a busy outing was 12 or so. They split into different groups if if gets more than that. But I have found them to be very enjoyable to join up with either for the whole day, or if you're just in the same area. Very easy way to get well into the double digits in number of routes for the day - - and we'll often just pull the ropes and use them to lead the climbs without needing to build anchors. (Mind you, leading on one of Pete Cleveland's potentially 30 year old ropes is not super confidence inducing) I do find it easier to pull a TR rope from the top- but I guess if I really needed to get out of there and didn't want to wait for someone climbing it while I hike to the top- I'd pull the rope from the bottom first just to take away the temptation from others...

I certainly didn't mean it that way. My description was based on my own personal experience climbing with them last summer. It was one of the biggest outings I've seen, and we had ropes up from D'Arcy's to Rainy Wednesday, so just about the whole bluff. Definitely got into the double digits on that day.

Doug Hemken wrote:I think what folks who weren't there are missing is that there was one large group spread out from Anemia to Horticulture, and Carver chose to toss another rope into the midst of this (perhaps without realizing it was all one group?). It is not surprising that people who were climbing with the group thought everything hanging there was group gear. It was an understandable case of mistaken identity.

Exactly what I pictured...just got the group wrong. :p

Ccase, Seth, I always find it fascinating when counterfactuals become the focus of criticism.

Doug, it ties into this because if it wasnt the ethic to just set and leave ropes around that people werent climbing on then it would not be the ethic to think it is ok to just jump on the one of 20 ropes with no one on them on any given weekend at the Lake. People climbing on other peoples ropes (jon in this case) is a direct output of people just setting and leaving ropes and this ethic devoloped as a reaction to the root cause from what i have heard from talking to some of the locals over my years climbing at the lake. This is getting worse and worse now as more and more gumbies are flocking to the Lake with the influx of new gyms in chicago.

Again i am not against sharing ropes and do it all the time because i do believe in ethics, but i am agaisnt setting multiple ropes you are not immediately climbing on which in turn will make it not ok to just climb on random ropes without asking the person who set it because they will be right there since their are not setting and forgetting which in turn will avoid situations like this... Jon is a good dude i am just really glad that anchor didnt get cleaned and he get hurt. I know i sure as hell do not check to see if someone is climbing on my rope nor do i think i should need to before i pull my anchors.

I admit that I too, have found a massive area all loaded with routes, and finding my choice is taken, have slipped in a rope on a spot between. But it did not occur to me each time, that there was a group with a dozen ropes in a row..,,,just figured a busy East Ramparts day and I was SOL for my choice of routes. Can see how this could end up with a stranger on my rope.

Agree that most big groups such as CMC do go to out of the way areas, OR break up into 6 or at a time and try not to occupy a huge area. They still may stay within shouting distance, but at least leave a whole buttress open between their set ups. And also agree that school, church and Boy Scouts do not know of the etiquette or follow it for the most part. Some of those have their own half knowing 'instructors', and others will rent out a local DL guide service, which should know to break up the group OR move off to an out of the way spot like Horse Ramparts or even the Guillotine area to keep group together and yet be separated for the most part from the masses on the east bluffs during the best days of a nice warm fall.

How does that math work? Chicago to DL is 3 hours without traffic, so I get that x 2 and throw in a stop for snacks = 6-7 hrs...but why do you only get 4-5 hours on the rock?