The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

Woodchuck, that was my point. The "tangle" of setups was actually three setups I had put up with another DLCG guide. One leg of one of those systems is crossing the other two, simply because it was the fastest, easiest and most bomber way to avoid the shattered rock in the cracks atop D'Arcy's. Nobody was even slightly inconvenienced by these setups, and they were only up for an hour or two. They were definitely not "camping" setups. We were in and out on them.

Seth Jones wrote:The petty nitpicking in this thread is hilarious. Oval vs D biners, overlapping static/webbing, no redundancy for a huge tree, ect. C'mon people. Edit: Woodchuck, I want to meet a person who is appeased by that tiny tree backing up the massive one in front of it because I want to make sure the retard is never on the other end of my rope.

Actually that 'person' was another guide, one who gets picky about only ONE anchor placed, even if the second , or backup, was going to be smaller. But I still stick with ovals being the best running for your rope over the edge. 'D's are fine, IF aligned correctly and same size, length. If an anchor is truly 'equalized', then it must include where the rope or sling is in contact with the doubled carabiners. Place a bigass locker with a mini nano' style wire and the short nano is taking all the weight...so I at least make the effort to get them to equal size.

Doug Hemken wrote: I did not realize that Slinger ever used a rope! Learn something new every day!

I even have an old pic of him somewhere in old photo albums, belaying someone on Gills Nose with his goldline around his waist one fine hot summer day back in 70's. He was a lot of fun as a belayer, that's for sure.

James M Schroeder wrote: ...Actually no, that is inferior as shown HERE, .

As I read the BD documentation and test results, the reduction in strength from a strop bend and a 'biner in the thumb loop is about the same - neither is clearly superior/inferior in strength.

AMGA standard for a TR is 40kN ?? I'd be curious to know how they justify that particular number ... do they anticipate guides TRing with static ropes?

I have one comment/rule.
A. You can't post pics that are not real. Pleae only post up real life found "anchors" in the wilds of DL.
Rule 2. Please say something to the climbers in a nice positive way if they really are going to potentially hurt themselves. But snap a pic first!
III. James, I will clip the thumb loop as a last possible resort on a TR as no real force should be generated. That being said, it's rare occasion.
IV. Chris and others, stoked you learned something! I have as well in this crazy, crazy thread.
E. To see more rules, go back to page 6 of this thread.

Damnit! I just broke my rule by talking and not posting a pic, but at least I am not asking for a partner for this Saturday....Or am I?

Doug Hemken wrote:AMGA standard for a TR is 40kN ?? I'd be curious to know how they justify that particular number ... do they anticipate guides TRing with static ropes?

Not an AMGA standard, a DLCG guideline.

Jon I believe Matt and I will be on eastern ramparts (weather permitting) building terrible anchors Saturday morning if you would care to join and/or snap photos of our death anchors.

It's a good standard for a guiding company to have. I would agree with that, and for personal climbing 30kn

Doug Hemken wrote: As I read the BD documentation and test results, the reduction in strength from a strop bend and a 'biner in the thumb loop is about the same - neither is clearly superior/inferior in strength.

Clipping through the thumb loop reduces cam strength by 2kn (per the earlier referenced link to BD Camalot instructions) so:

14kn-2kn = 12kn failure of leg.

Strop hitch reduces sling strength to .8 its initial value (LINK)

22kn*.8 = 17.6kn so leg failure occurs at cam failure strength (14kn)

Strop hitch is better.

James, where does the 22kn rating come from in the second equation?

Is that the strength of the nylon tape on the cam?

Sling strength. Maybe I'm assuming too much, but I take it that the sling attached to the cam is the same strength as a regular sewn sling of the same material and construction.

EDIT to Add: Jon, this would be a good one for the QC lab to test, although I'm fairly confident that the results would favor the strop hitch. (In the end, it's a fairly academic exercise since most people's backs would explode at 12kn).

James, I think you're right about the gear in question - in general it would depend on the sling material used.

Jon, all I can find @BD is that the cam would fail at the thumb loop, not the sling, so the cam sling must be consistently > 14kN. If the sling is usually 15kN, then the two methods are equal.

This link suggests likely cam sling strengths.

Further edit: actually, the "% reduction" is a deceptive number to interpret, if you read the notes on the hitch testing. It is actually "% below the 22kN benchmark".

James M Schroeder wrote:Sling strength. Maybe I'm assuming too much, but I take it that the sling attached to the cam is the same strength as a regular sewn sling of the same material and construction.

The 18mm nylon slings on the cam and their standard 18mm nylon runners both have 6 bar tacks, so there is no reason they wouldn't be 22kn. They are exactly the same.

3nl wrote: The 18mm nylon slings on the cam and their standard 18mm nylon runners both have 6 bar tacks, so there is no reason they wouldn't be 22kn. They are exactly the same.

Yes, I agree.

OK,,a real anchor set up here. This is atop the main buttress at Stettners, from last weekend at DL. I never caught seeing that edge underneath where they have wrapped up one sling for a choke off anchor ( and I'd always use 2 identical sized slings to double it up). Climber also has 2 well placed nuts and a shebang' of a master point made of rope to tie it all up nicely and over the edge. I'd guess a lot of work later to get those weighted nuts out, but a very good triple anchor point set up. Unless you want to fault that the cracks for nuts are all part of the giant hunk of quartzite that is wrapped from below,,thus failure of one part of the rock might affect the rest of the anchor points. I know now that I see this handy wrap point, I will try that myself next time I am up there.

Hooray, James is here! :) I thought I saw you walking around, James, and so I thought I would find something to pick on you about. I am really sorry to have triggered a defensive response from you, I put that little asterisk in there as an attempt to be a little lighthearted! I can tell with your citation of technical manuals and point by point highlighting that you really took my comments as harsh criticism and I apologize that they came off that way... I never meant to imply it wasn't safe, all I thought I said is that of all the options, that choice confused me.

But hey, I know IRL you are a friendly guy so why don't I play your super technical nit-picky game with you (all in good fun of course)! I noticed in the tech manual that the thumb loop only indicates -2KN which would not concern me on a big cam on a TR. Furthermore, you mention this biner was "2 feet down," which would mean that there really was no chance of a biner being loaded over an edge since a biner + cam sling is what, 9 or so inches? I know very well what a stop bend is, it is just a girth where you twist one of the slings so it sits cleaner. Effectively the same knot but I think there is a test somewhere that shows it is a small percentage stronger than a girth depending on material. I've tied them before and it takes maybe a few seconds longer than a normal girth, but that is time you could be climbing.

Also, as long as we discuss time, here is my biggest and real gripe with what you are saying. You (and most guides) prize time and efficiency in anchor setups. Actually, you say exactly this when explaining the crisscrossing ropes. I 100% agree with this sentiment. Thus, in the interest of time, I can't believe that sitting there and girthing, then making the perfect strop bend, is efficient time wise. I would have just clipped the biner (if it really was that several feet deep) and went to climb. Heck, if you really want to keep people's gear together, carry it down and give it to them or keep it on a separate sling. By the way, what I really would have done with that biner, if I chose to leave it there and do your little strop, would be to clip it to the cam sling and the runner, just as a way to keep it in place and provide a less lucrative piece of gear "dangling" for someone to potentially mess with.

By the way, $8 is not in insubstantial when you are on my salary, that's a decent locking biner on sale, or a six pack of spotted cow! Plus, what about the shipping cost and also the opportunity cost of having to go to the PO/box it up? Then you gear is gone and unusable for a short period of time. All this PITA factor should add up, especially for someone like you who's time is very valuable. But anyway, you are welcome to replace your cam slings, pay $8 + shipping and go to the PO, 4X as often as I do, whatever works for you!

But hey, this is just minutia. We would have set it up different, but neither setup is right or more safe, just different preferences. I regret that I made you unhappy and defensive, I tried to keep my commentary lighthearted because I think we get too nit-picky in this thread (and elsewhere on climbing forums). I knew you were lurking around and I thought you would take some light jabbing in a friendly way; I promise not to pick on your setups in the future - let's call a truce and still share ropes at the crag?!

PS: the crossing ropes thing wasn't a criticism (plz reread that), I just thought it was a good visual of "cluster," all in the name of good fun.

EDIT: Yes I have broke the rules again without posting a pic - hmm lemme dig through my archive here... OK here is one of mine on top of pseudo's, and you can give me a really hard time for using... a single point anchor - I thought I was gonna die, but I survived somehow ;-)

PPS: sorry, I always mix up Darcy's and Pedestal, those two just always blend together for me. Gotta start reading Jay's great new guidebook to get my calibrations set straight!

Andy P. wrote:Hooray, James is here! :) I thought I saw you walking around, James, and so I thought I would find something to pick on you about. I am really sorry to have triggered a defensive response from you, I put that little asterisk in there as an attempt to be a little lighthearted! I can tell with your citation of technical manuals and point by point highlighting that you really took my comments as harsh criticism and I apologize that they came off that way... I never meant to imply it wasn't safe, all I thought I said is that of all the options, that choice confused me.

Andy, I'm not offended or being defensive. I understand that you are confused by my choices, which is why I tried (and am continuing to try) to fully-explain to you, and others who might see this thread exactly why I made the choices I made, and exactly why I considered them to be the absolute best choices I could make given the situation. I know you meant no harm and were just trying to learn - when passing on knowledge I try to be thorough, maybe to a fault.

Andy P. wrote:But hey, I know IRL you are a friendly guy so why don't I play your super technical nit-picky game with you (all in good fun of course)! I noticed in the tech manual that the thumb loop only indicates -2KN which would not concern me on a big cam on a TR.

I think I'm a nice guy on the internet too - I mean in real life, I charge people for this kind of education. You are correct, 2kn shouldn't matter with a #3 C4 in a TR situation. That said, I try to keep myself, especially when I'm in a professional situation, in the habit of doing things in the best way I can see to do them given the circumstances I am working with. I feel like when people are paying me to keep them safe; I have a responsibility to do so to the best of my knowledge and ability. This includes not needlessly weakening a cam from 14kn to 12kn or levering a carabiner over an edge.

Andy P. wrote:Furthermore, you mention this biner was "2 feet down," which would mean that there really was no chance of a biner being loaded over an edge since a biner + cam sling is what, 9 or so inches?

It was a tiered crack system. I had to move rocks and leaves to get to solid bedrock. An ill-intentioned passerby would have had to reach well into the crack system to get the carabiner - not to mention negotiate some exposed 3rd class. Still, inside the crack (as is fairly evident in the photo) there was an edge that the carabiner was close to levering over.

Andy P. wrote:I know very well what a stop [sic] bend is, it is just a girth where you twist one of the slings so it sits cleaner. Effectively the same knot but I think there is a test somewhere that shows it is a small percentage stronger than a girth depending on material. I've tied them before and it takes maybe a few seconds longer than a normal girth, but that is time you could be climbing.

To be clear for the other folks out there (since you get it correct lower in your response Andy) it is a "Strop Bend" not "Stop Bend". Your description here is inaccurate. It is not a "twist" but an orienting of the slings such that the bend is uniform and symmetrical. Strop Bends are no more time consuming to tie than girth hitches. You might be thinking of a "Climber's Hitch" which is stronger still, but more complicated. A climber's hitch here probably would have been jacked given the position of the bar tack on the cam sling. In any event the Strop Bend vs. Girth Hitch would be a difference of about 2.2kn in this situation - again probably not even remotely relevant, but I'll take the stronger solution if it doesn't cost me anything (especially when I'm working).

Andy P. wrote:Also, as long as we discuss time, here is my biggest and real gripe with what you are saying. You (and most guides) prize time and efficiency in anchor setups. Actually, you say exactly this when explaining the crisscrossing ropes. I 100% agree with this sentiment. Thus, in the interest of time, I can't believe that sitting there and girthing, then making the perfect strop bend, is efficient time wise.

Again, the strop bend is no more time-consuming to tie than a girth hitch. And, when the carabiner will be loaded over an edge, it is worth the time to do it correctly since loading a carabiner over an edge could, even in a relatively low-force top rope scenario compromise the leg.

Andy P. wrote:I would have just clipped the biner (if it really was that several feet deep) and went to climb. Heck, if you really want to keep people's gear together, carry it down and give it to them or keep it on a separate sling. By the way, what I really would have done with that biner, if I chose to leave it there and do your little strop, would be to clip it to the cam sling and the runner, just as a way to keep it in place and provide a less lucrative piece of gear "dangling" for someone to potentially mess with.

It's fine that you have a different solution in your personal climbing than I do when I am working professionally. I often make different choices when climbing and anchoring for myself than I do when guiding. The expectation of how I manage both objective and subjective risk is considerably different in the two situations. You are free to organize your gear sling as you choose, I won't criticize you for it. I'm not sure why this loose carabiner is such a concern to you, it wasn't your property put in "danger" and the only way it could have been seen is if someone was intentionally looking for irrelevant things to criticize - which, when you say this, "...and so I thought I would find something to pick on you about." is what it sounds like your intent was.

Andy P. wrote:By the way, $8 is not in insubstantial when you are on my salary, that's a decent locking biner on sale, or a six pack of spotted cow! Plus, what about the shipping cost and also the opportunity cost of having to go to the PO/box it up? Then you gear is gone and unusable for a short period of time. All this PITA factor should add up, especially for someone like you who's time is very valuable. But anyway, you are welcome to replace your cam slings, pay $8 + shipping and go to the PO, 4X as often as I do, whatever works for you!

Yes, $8, plus shipping and a considerable amount of time could be considered expensive. Although if you amortize that over the number of girth hitches/strop bends it would take to prematurely wear out a sling (I can't even begin to accurately estimate how astronomically high that number might be), but I'd imagine it costs me less than a cent per time. That seems like a small price to pay for doing things the best way available at the time. It also seems considerably cheaper than replacing a bent or broken carabiner that was loaded over an edge (also probably about $8 plus shipping).

Andy P. wrote:But hey, this is just minutia. We would have set it up different, but neither setup is right or more safe, just different preferences. I regret that I made you unhappy and defensive, I tried to keep my commentary lighthearted because I think we get too nit-picky in this thread (and elsewhere on climbing forums). I knew you were lurking around and I thought you would take some light jabbing in a friendly way; I promise not to pick on your setups in the future - let's call a truce and still share ropes at the crag?! PS: the crossing ropes thing wasn't a criticism (plz reread that), I just thought it was a good visual of "cluster," all in the name of good fun.

You haven't made me unhappy Andy, and you're largely right about it being all minutia. That said, some people look at this thread and try to learn, so I want to make sure the information coming out of it is accurate. I would hate for someone to falsely "learn" that some of your critiques were more than just playful banter and then consider them to be relevant. I will say that I honestly believe my choices were better, safer and more efficient than the alternatives you mention in your various critiques. No need to truce, I wasn't aware we were fighting. And, please do feel free to critique my setups in the future, it seems that doing so has actually provided some productive discussion. It's not everyday I get to drop some new knowledge on a climber as experienced as Chris! You're welcome to climb on my set ups any time.

I would think a single, immovable point anchor would be fine as far as not breaking the point itself, especially a fat tree.

BUT The issue I don't see anyone defending the single anchor discussing as much, though, is the webbing or rope around it breaking - the DL rock has some sharp edges and cracks the webbing or cord can be cut by. The other potential failure of one point is if that point involves any knot that may or may not be tied and dressed as perfectly as one may think. The point of double is in case that length of cord or webbing you've been using and re-using to tie anchors breaks or the knot unravels. Fine to use one solid point as long as the webbing / rope is doubled up.

So with all this back and forth over the semantics of James' cam I have to break the rules of the thread to ask the obvious question no one is asking here.

Why not just try a different placement so that you're not weakening the placement at all, and wasting time sitting there doing math to figure out how much one way or the other might be weakening the placement? I mean this in the friendliest way possible, because I'm a nice guy too, but all the mental gymnastics on this one seems a bit ridiculous when you're making a gear anchor which means you probably have plenty of other options.

You don't actually have all that many great options for gear on top of D'Arcy's or Pedestal.

He didn't do the math on the spot, he invoked a rule of thumb he's developed ... a good rule of thumb, given his usual gear.

He really didn't have to slow down and think about it all that much, most of the thinking was done long ago. This is the way most people operate most of the time.