Minimal Competence Require to Climb Big Walls

I see your point, MT Head. My comments about their communication was more pointing to that I felt it was inefficient. In actual fact, I tell people all the time to do what feels comfortable for them. If that level of communication feels comfortable AND helps their efficiency, then I'm all for it. I stand corrected!

Mark, No disrespect at all. I have tremendous respect for you and I know your better than that frame of mind. I understand you were frustrated on your project with others being up there. But their being present on the Salathe has in fact added to your adventure on the wall and in life. You were once that struggling nOOb trying to push the limits. You're just pushing different limits today.

Right on MT Head!

I was thinking about this more and decided to add some thoughts. I'm a novice big wall climber myself. Went out to Zion this past May to do two walls. My partner and I both read Chris Mac's book, practiced aiding local cracks, and read up on Mark's hauling material.

Our first wall went...smoothly! In fact the only hiccup on this wall was being stuck behind a party of 3 on Moonlight that was dog slow. Our second wall went even better, since we were out there alone.

However, this definitely didn't have to be the case. We were probably 80% confident in our skills, and we definitely had issues arise that could have turned into epics if we had made the wrong choice. Stuck ropes, slow party slowing us down to the point of running low on water, strong winds, etc.

Obviously if everyone trains like mad to the point of being 100% confident in their ability to smoothly execute a route in all conditions, it takes all the adventure and fun out of the process (not to mention nothing about a big wall is 100% certain.) What % is enough though? 90% seems reasonable, but still, if everyone who gets on the Nose is 90%, then you'd still easily have a couple epics each week due to the sheer number of folks on there, and each one would "ruin" the day of those parties beneath the ones having the epic.

Just my two cents, seems like expecting epics is par for the course on these trade routes. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live close enough to a place where you can just practice big walling on the less-popular big walls.

I was just drinking coffee with Dustin Moore, the guy I'm working Freerider with, and we were discussing how we are going to get back up to our kit quickly and easily. We discussed, in detail, how we would lead and clean certain pitches to be most efficient.

This is a big thing that I think most climbers don't do but is very important. With every one one of my partners, Dustin, Skot, Max or Cheyne, (all who have extensive wall experience) beforehand, we discuss the best way to lead or clean a pitch or perform some task. The point is to get both climbers on the same page so they don't have to be figuring something out when they are 150 feet apart at different anchors. Everyone knows their job and doesn't need to waste time yelling to get it done.

This plays to efficiency and also to safety. Imagine being at different anchors and trying to figure something out during a raging storm!

An intelligent reading of the thread does not lead to that conclusion, BillS. Personally, I've received two emails thanking me for bringing this issue up.

I see Mark being very humble and trying to raise awareness. Not much ego here.

Rob Dillon wrote:Yosemite: I don't think anyone goes up to the S. Face of Washington Column between April and October without a reasonable expectation of clusterage, but there's a few less popular things out there: The Gold Wall, esp. the aid variation; Erik Sloan's new thing Good ol Boy VI 5.8 A2 on the Camp 4 Wall that he suggests is a perfect 'trainer wall' (in his new wall book); Lurking Fear of course, although it's not unpopular; the NW Face of Higher Cathedral (Robbins route, perpetually deserted); La Escuela (2-pitch 'schoolroom' crack on the base of El Cap, but I don't like hanging out there in season). From the locals: Yosemite Practice Aid Circuit

This is what I was looking for...thank you. The NW Face of Higher Cathedral is intriguing.

BillS wrote:How much time clogging up the route do you think a noob aid climber compares to a freeclimber of the caliber that requires several attempts, over possibly several seasons, to free the route? These posts are pretty clearly really about your ego.

I think you're way out of line here. Mark's been doing great thinks in climbing since before I started climbing and that was a long time ago...Around the Civil War maybe? In all the years, I've yet to see him stroke his ego in print or elsewhere. I've never met him but sent him an email here and he was wonderfully gracious.

Maybe you should check your ego before calling out Mark's. In reading the thread, there are some good points about being prepared and considerate of those around you. If you find these concepts to be some sort of affront, you probably don't play too well with others.

This is a very slippery slope. How fast is fast enough? At what point is it o.k. to aid a pitch rather than free it? Can I aid a 5.9 pitch? A 5.8 pitch? A 5.11 pitch?

Last time I was on the Salathe I freed some 5.11, but I also aided some 5.8. And 2 parties started after us on the same day, so we were inevitably bumping into each other and slowing each other down at the belays.

Maybe this phenomenon is also related to a younger generation that is wiling to flail on stuff that is too hard for them. But this is exactly how Chris Sharma came to be what he is. A few years ago, I was screwed behind a party that rappelled slower than my grandma when they were in over their heads on a classic ice climb. (seriously, they were so unbelievably slow.) Fast forward 3 years and they made a stylin' ascent of the Moonflower Buttress.

All in all, it's pretty hard to get angry at someone for getting in over their head, because that is the essence of climbing. We've all been there, and we should all expect someone to be flailing ahead of us on the the hyper classic trade routes in peak season.

In the same breath, I agree there is a minimum competence to climb a popular route during a busy time of year. For the safety and fun of you and those around you. But someone is going to have to stick his/her neck out there to come up with this list for the Salathe. So what's on that list?

Mark,

Please, tell us the story that led to this thread.

The story will further educate---and probably be totally entertaining!

Thanks Much!

Scott Mc

Good points, BillS, thanks for coming around.

There are no easy or black and white solutions. As you said, everyone wants to climb El Cap. Still though, my original point, that climbers should honestly assess their abilities before starting up on a popular route and that they should take into account other climber's experience, is still valid.

Scott, it was just a giant cluster, numerous parties were involved spread out over a few days. There is no need to name names and embarrass anyone.

JohnnyG wrote:This is a very slippery slope. How fast is fast enough? At what point is it o.k. to aid a pitch rather than free it? Maybe this phenomenon is also related to a younger generation that is wiling to flail on stuff that is too hard for them. All in all, it's pretty hard to get angry at someone for getting in over their head, because that is the essence of climbing. We've all been there, and we should all expect someone to be flailing ahead of us on the the hyper classic trade routes in peak season. In the same breath, I agree there is a minimum competence to climb a popular route during a busy time of year. For the safety and fun of you and those around you.

I always estimate that it will take more time than I expect when doing a classic multi pitch because we might get stuck behind someone moving slower and not be able to pass for a while. That said, I don't want to be that slow party that is causing a traffic jam. I enjoy myself much more when my partner and I can go at our own pace without another party on our heels, so I will offer to let the faster climbers pass, within reason.

I prefer to flail on single pitch too hard routes and wait until I am competent enough for the harder multi pitch routes. People getting pissed off at my flailing will not help me climb any better.

If someone is unable to free some moves after many tries and the route is getting clogged with climbers behind, then it would be polite for that person to aid through the sequence. As long as they are honest about the ascent, there is no shame in aiding (and I imagine much relief among the climbers below if that gets things moving).

I'm on the flipside from Mark - I was pretty fast when young but never got beyond around five nine, five ten trad. 5.9 runouts were rare for me, although not complete mindbenders when done. I don't count myself as bold, but I come from the Bachar-Yerian era, so I may be more gutsy than the current crop of climbers.

After about fifteen years off, I got back to it about three years ago, with big walls in mind, and put my focus on aid climbing & systems. I'm nailing down the skills pretty late in life*, and again, because I'm not bold (telling people to fuck off and get over me being slow is not in my skill set) I mostly climb when other people aren't: before sunrise, after sunset & during bad weather. If I'm doing laps at my local spot and other people start showing up, I pack up and leave. At this time in history, because of the population pressure on resources, being anywhere on the learning curve is annoying to others who are more competent.

I am following Rob Dillon's idea: I am likely to flail while learning & gaining competence, ergo, I climb at less traveled times (equivalent to less traveled routes.) It works.

• with a fair amount of guidance about wall systems from Mark.

Truer words have never been said.

I have lots of opinions about the issues Mark has raised, but I'll share just one: it's not just skills but willingness to accept risk. More people from the 1970s crop of climbers are willing to accept runouts and serious consequences than climbers who started in the last 10-15 years. Placing or needing lots of gear definitely slows you down, but I for one am less willing to skimp on my safety net. Some of this is due to intrinsic fear, and some of it is due to the obvious reality that things can and do go wrong. Even someone climbing at the 5.11 level may be unwilling to space it out on 5.8 terrain, and that's a personal choice.

While that may not be specific to big-wall clusters, it's a point that deserves mentioning. Boldness is an individual decision.

We will never get away from crowding or the newbie vs experienced climber problem, but if we all put considering other's experience on the climb at the same level as our experience on the climb, we will have come a long way.

CWood wrote:... More people from the 1970s crop of climbers are willing to accept runouts and serious consequences than climbers who started in the last 10-15 years. ...

i don't find this to be the case at all. i see a LOT more people, particularly climbers who have been climbing less than 3 years, climbing hard bold hard routes these days. geezers love to say that gym climbers will be shaking in their boots on runout 5.9 slab, but i haven't found this to be the case at all. i think a lot of geezers look back and remember being more bold than they really were. it's like they somehow think they climbed the BY, but haven't ever even been to tuolumne...

climbing friend,

you would be off of my lawn getting off!

Mark is absolutely spot on here. There are so many climbers that are getting on routes that are well beyond their skill sets. It is not unreasonable to complain about the pace of these parties nor to suggest that they spend the time learning what they don't know and then filling in those knowledge gaps. The biggest problem with the noob defense is that it tries to absolve people of ignorance by permitting it. Ignorance in the mountains is dangerous and should be admonished, not accepted as the new normal. If a party has not taken the time to prepare for bigger, more difficult routes and learn the systems well enough to understand how to use them efficiently, they have no business being on the route and should be told so. Alpine rock is where I've seen the worst examples recently. So many parties getting on longer, committing alpine routes that they can barely climb; if you have to hang (esp multiple times) every pitch, you are not ready.

i definitely agree that there are a lot of people that lean towards getting in over their heads on stuff, but how is that any different than it always has been? i think if you looked at the ratios of people in this boat, it really hasn't changed that much. there are just so so many more people out there now.

at any point (or points) on a long route there will be sections that go more slowly. this is going to back things up, regardless of who is on the route. it is no different than road traffic.

i notice that nobody has really responded to my disagreement that people are climbing walls more slowly today than they did in the 70's....