Sliding X: 1 vs. 2 Slings
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I need some clarification regarding the Sliding X and Redundancy. Nearly all online examples/tutorials demonstrating the Sliding X on use one sling. My understanding of Redundancy is simply everything in the anchor system is redundant. If the one sling were to break the systems fails. Is there a reason most examples/tutorials do not use two slings for redundancy? Or, if using two slings are you've simply created super strong anchor (which is always my goal)? |
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Most people that use the sliding x would also use limiter knots and argue that they provide redundancy. |
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Nope, "everything" is not always redundant. Redundancy is simply a metric to evaluate an anchor, not a requirement. |
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The concept of redundancy in climbing applies more to your connections points to the rock rather than the equipment used to connect everything. Most climbers are always relying on only one rope, one belay loop, one carabiner, one master point etc. we all climb under the assumption that these things will not fail if used properly and inspected with some regularity. Where redundancy comes into play for most people is either fixed gear (bolts or otherwise) or trad gear placements, these things are more unknown, sometimes we cant tell for sure if a bolt is good (rock quality, hidden rusting, etc.) or if a gear placement will hold, so we want a backup, or multiple backups in the case of gear anchors. |
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befozz wrote:The concept of redundancy in climbing applies more to your connections points to the rock rather than the equipment used to connect everything.Thanks! I was wondering if the redundancy concept referred to the connection points and not gear. |
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Natatat wrote:Here's a great (terrifying) example: soundcloud.com/the_sharp_en…-Oh man, I saw that when searching the forums to find an answer to my question. Super terrifying! Thanks for the link! |
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One sling with a single knot, in theory, provides redundancy, say for example, one bolt of a two bolt anchor fails. The other method using a single sling is twisting the sling. Per request, ignoring all the reasons why this is not a good solution. Two slings, one to each bolt, would also create a redundant system should one bolt fail. Again, all theoretical, and none of this information is particularly useful because your anchor will never be limited to just redundancy alone, but in principal theses methods would create a redundant master point on a two bolt style anchor should one point fail. |
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I almost never use a sliding x. if the anchor pieces or bolts are good actual equalization is not an issue as much as redundancy. the only time the slideing x make much sense to use is to connect 2 crappy pieces to the rope. Since i generaly use doubble ropes on those kinds of routes it is 100% better to clip one strand to each piece rather than fart arround with sliding x crapola. |
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Please avoid discussing the reason why redundancy is a moot point but explain why these videos I saw on the internet don't demonstrate redundancy? |
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If you are Not climbing R and X rated routes and are useing the slideing X on G rated climbs STOP. Do not pass go and do Not collect $200.00 |
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Cory F wrote:I need some clarification regarding the Sliding X and Redundancy. Nearly all online examples/tutorials demonstrating the Sliding X on use one sling. My understanding of Redundancy is simply everything in the anchor system is redundant. If the one sling were to break the systems fails. Is there a reason most examples/tutorials do not use two slings for redundancy? Or, if using two slings are you've simply created super strong anchor (which is always my goal)? PLEASE AVOID all discussions regarding the the "No Extension" and shock loading.You get to decide how much risk you're willing to accept, regardless of what videos on the internet show. Is that one sling guaranteed to be free of manufacturing defects and chemical damage? One would hope it is, but the key word is "guaranteed". Chance and consequence of failure and are two separate things. Chance of failure may be low while consequence of failure stays huge. Using two slings instead of one to create the sliding X is a simple way to add redundancy. |
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befozz wrote:The concept of redundancy in climbing applies more to your connections points to the rock rather than the equipment used to connect everything. Most climbers are always relying on only one rope, one belay loop, one carabiner, one master point etc. we all climb under the assumption that these things will not fail if used properly and inspected with some regularity. Where redundancy comes into play for most people is either fixed gear (bolts or otherwise) or trad gear placements, these things are more unknown, sometimes we cant tell for sure if a bolt is good (rock quality, hidden rusting, etc.) or if a gear placement will hold, so we want a backup, or multiple backups in the case of gear anchors.Double Ropes, Metolius Safetech harness with double belay loops, locker + key lock = everything is redundant. |
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on a standard 2 bolt top anchor 2 reguler old quick draws are 100% safer than a single sling with slideing x and lockers. YMMV obviously but that is how I see it. i rarely if ever use a slideing x. I do use 4ft runners with pre tied limiter knots for ice climbing and trad belays when leading in blocks. If leapfrogging I use the rope for belays. |
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Nick Goldsmith wrote:on a standard 2 bolt top anchor 2 reguler old quick draws are 100% safer than a single sling with slideing x and lockers.I prefer opposing quick draws for their simplicity. However, the crag I'm referring to (Pilot Mountain, NC) has bolted anchors about 2' from the edge. Great top rope access but it prompts creative anchor building. Especially, when I have enough gear for two ropes and we typically have 3-4 ropes going. On day, I hope, my climbing friends will buy more slings etc for anchors. |
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There really isn't much of an advantage to using two slings instead of one, especially if the anchors aren't perfectly even to begin with (in that case you will be using a knot anyway). Lots of folks focus mainly on how safe an anchor is, but it is also important to focus on how easy to use it is. Double or quad length slings eliminate the need to use single length slings at anchors. |