New Bolts on the Nose, El Capitan: one 60m rope rapping from Sickle and Dolt

Dylan B wrote:Has anybody ever gone to Yosemite and decided not to climb the Nose because it required two-rope rappels?

Prob not and this is why i say its a silly argument. I agree with Marc 90% speculation and real world impact negligible.

What happens if people are expecting these repels and only bring one rope and these bolts get chopped cause of the controversy going on here. Could cause some big issues of one wants to rap from sickle with one rope expecting these new bolts to be there.

Marc801 wrote: This strikes me as about 90% speculation and might increase traffic by a percent or two. The need for two ropes on a huge number of other Valley routes has done nothing to prevent their popularity. The need for a second line to get off of something has never stopped me or anyone I know from doing a route, nor has a route that only needs one rope been selected in preference. Since it's an existing rap route, with precedent set by other rap routes, I'm having a hard time seeing this as a major issue. Is/was there equal outrage over the season long fixed ropes from Heart Ledge? How about the Salathe rap route? Royal Arches?

It is not speculation my friend. Yosemite sees increasing numbers of climbers year after year after year. The difficulty of rapping from Dolt Tower with other parties on the route (12 pitches off the ground) has for DECADES kept people from treating the stove legs like a grade III sport climb. This intends to increase climbing traffic and it will.

The lack of foresight in this thread as well as realization of how trashed the Nose has gotten over the last 50 years is shocking to me.

It has been no "negligible" impact when there is FEET thick shit behind El Cap Tower and every ledge smells of piss and shit.

Rock climbs in Yosemite and elsewhere go from pristine rock to polished chalk caked greasy piles of garbage over decades and you guys want to increase the rate of decline without a thought of the outcome?

This is the most famous rock climb in the world. It does not need more traffic or more convenience to get climbed. It only will accelerate the degradation of the route.

If you do not have first hand experience of these issues in Yosemite then please do not offer your opinion about documented problems with human impact on routes there.

King Tut wrote: Yosemite sees increasing numbers of climbers year after year after year.

because there's now better rap routes?

Morgan Patterson wrote: because there's now better rap routes?

YES. The more convenience the more traffic the route experiences. If you leave the ground knowing that retreat is nearly impossible suddenly the route self selects for climbers with higher skill and commitment.

when you know you can retreat at anytime then anyone and their granny gives it a go.

King Tut wrote: YES. The more convenience the more traffic the route experiences.

More people arent going to YOS because its got better rap routes. Lets be honest the difference will be negligible really and it sounds like the real problem is Clint's descent route... What about that? Sounds like a much more of an 'issue' to me.

And as far as highways... there's a reason they expand. Growing populations. They don't say well ya know if we make 95 wider and add a lane more people will want to travel on it and that will increase congestion so lets not do it. Lets leave it at 2 lanes and then folks will just all pour onto the back roads and less people will take 95 and it'll be like it was back in the day. Nah.... it just gets worse and worse until someone comes along and adds a lane and then its better for a time, until the population outgrows it once again.

Morgan Patterson wrote: More people arent going to YOS because its got better rap routes. I have never made a decision to go to a major climbing destination because supposedly one had better rap routes. Lets be honest the differnce will be negligable really and it sounds like the real problem is Clint's descent route... What about that? Sounds like a much more of an 'issue' to me.

This thread ain't about Clint's route.

People do go to Yosemite more as convenience has increased. At the dawn of the sport climbing revolution Yosemite was temporarily out of favor as people spread out to more convenient areas where you could consume more routes in a day due to half rope pitches and anchors with lower off chains rather than walk offs.

You simply don't have the experience to see what the changes of convenience have made on some routes in Yosemite and how people used to cry about walk offs and carrying extra gear for anchors and ropes to rappel. Yosemite is being slowly sportified and the resource is suffering for it.

Yes, population is growing and highways don't make population increase. But they do permit more population to go to areas that were inconvenient before. The population of San Francisco is nearly stable over the last 50 years due to congestion, but the freeways surrounding it have produced rapid development of previous open fields because you can use them to commute to the city for a day job.

Trust me, if you build more access they will come.

King Tut wrote: You simply don't have the experience to see what the changes of convenience have made on some routes in Yosemite

Of course not... I've never climbed there... duh, this is the interwebs! ;-)

Morgan Patterson wrote: Of course not... I've never climbed there... duh, this is the interwebs! ;-)

well Morgan, then yes, you should come and see for yourself some of the scars, dead trees, shit, erosion, and general wear the popular routes experience.

King Tut wrote: well Morgan, then yes, you should come and see for yourself some of the scars, dead trees, shit, erosion, and general wear the popular routes experience.

Would love to.. been to the valley but didnt get to climb.

Kinda ironic though... sounds like the damage from trad climbing's 'no anchors'/ rap stations ethic here in CT.

Dylan B wrote:Has anybody ever gone to Yosemite and decided not to climb the Nose because it required two-rope rappels? Is that really the barrier to entry for any sizable number of people? This is a serious question. I've never been to Yosemite to climb, and have no idea if this is something that would really matter. I can say, I've never decided not to do a climb because I'd have to trail a line. I mean, maybe the odd day when we're at the crag and we only happen to have brought one rope and decide it's not worth the bother to do such-and-such because we'd have to walk off. But generally, if I have a climb in mind that needs two ropes, I'll bring two ropes.

This is how it goes. BITD if you had to retreat off of the Nose or Salathe you had to leave your own anchors. An enormously costly problem or maybe very dangerous running out of gear or searching on rappel for a spot you could build an anchor. You thought long and hard about the weather and if you were up for it before attempting a route. There were fewer climbers sure, but that was also because of primitive tools making climbing a lot harder and more dangerous. In such a time, the less rappels the less costly and the less danger, so only 2 rope rappels were practical.

Then as tools improved (cams mostly enormously increased access, try to imagine rarely placing anything other than pitons for 30 pitches of aid climbing) then also rappel routes started to appear as more climbers, less prepared, attempted routes over their head.

These conveniences seemed like a boon at the various times of introduction, but it has lead to a circus on the Nose in prime season of inexperienced parties and enormous negative impact on the route.

Adding more bolts to an existing rappel route lets even more people day trip up to Dolt. These bolts are being added merely to accommodate Nose in a Day parties that fail and bail low or to open up the Stove legs to more day climbers. They are entirely extraneous convenience anchors for those too lazy to trail a second rope.

Un-needed and short sighted imo and will lead to more congestion in time, not less.

Morgan Patterson wrote: Would love to.. been to the valley but didnt get to climb. Kinda ironic though... sounds like the damage from trad climbing's 'no anchors'/ rap stations ethic here in CT.

I feel ya' and bolts should be placed for anchors rather than killing trees.

But trees are also killed by people standing on them, the more people the faster the tree is killed and the more convenient the route the faster the trees are killed.

As an economics graduate student and someone whose climbed the Nose multiple times I feel the need to chime in.

King Tut's point about more interstates leading to more traffic, although counter intuitive, is correct and I believe applies here (see Downs-Thompson Paradox). More convenience will lead to more traffic.

As for,

Dylan B wrote:Has anybody ever gone to Yosemite and decided not to climb the Nose because it required two-rope rappels?

Yes. Absolutely. Dolt runs and NIAD ascents are increasingly common. All of these parties have to carefully decide how much gear to bring. In years past, those confident enough have frequently chosen not to carry a second rope. I've even heard tale of one member of two person team chucking their rap line from pitch 15 after unilaterally deciding he wasn't going to bail. There is no doubt in my fairly experienced mind that a single rope rappel option will encourage more parties to try the NIAD, ultimately creating more congestion.

As for Erik Sloan,
What you're doing is lame. I've met you a couple times at the bridge and in the SAR site. On each occasion you were kind, friendly, and all sorts of psyched. Thank you for the new guidebook (It's awesome!). Thank you for replacing so many old, dangerous bolts. I can hardly fathom how much effort it took.

But please stop adding convenience bolts. Please stop adding retro bolts. There is not doubt your overall impact on Yosemite climbing has been positive. Yet you continue to tarnish that good with short-sighted actions I struggle to understand. Please don't harm the rock unless there is near universal consensus--both from today's Yosemite locals and aging Yosemite legends. Seek approval before drilling, not after.

Time will ultimately show the error of enhancing convenience. I just hope there will still be some unscarred rock left in the Valley before it happens.

Yo Gang,

Interesting discussion. Hilarious to think that people are surprised that traffic is increasing on the NOse - doesn't Hans have a bestseller on Amazon right now about climbing it? It's the best route in the world, for sure as more people take up climbing, and more climbers understand what it takes to climb it through better guides, it will continue to increase in popularity. Yes, when the world recorder holder comes out with a book about how cool Niad ing is, the route is going to get more popular (Hans set the Nose record when he was 49 - wonder how you old codgers would fair up there, haha).

We'll see how the Nose fairs with more safe rappel stations. The idea here is to keep folks moving on the route, and to get people rappelling from Dolt to be independent of the route itself.

Interesting too that no one compares this to what happened at Fifi Buttress here in Yosemite. Old guy Dan McDevitt saw how the new guys were outfitting their routes in the lower canyon, and how much more fun it was to climb long routes with one rope, etc., and Dan went and retro-fitted his old routes with belay bolts, rap rings, some new lead bolts - and Dan has also been establishing tons of new routes up there too. He'll talk to you in Yosemite any time.

So make no mistake that these people hiding behind their internet names are jokers - Fifi now has a super-highway trail to it, one rope rapping on every route, and bolts all over the place - and the pro climbers and people who climb all the time love it. They talk about how awesome it is, how fun, etc.

Getting so good here now! Look forward to seeing you out here!

Woot Woot!
Erik

and of course Many Thanks to the folks who have contributed!

Please give generously! (paypal to yosemiteerik@gmail.com)

We really need a Yosemite Climbers Ranch so we can talk about this stuff while dancing around the campfire!

Woot Woot!

Erik Sloan wrote:Yo Gang, Interesting discussion. Hilarious to think that people are surprised that traffic is increasing on the NOse - doesn't Hans have a bestseller on Amazon right now about climbing it? It's the best route in the world, for sure as more people take up climbing, and more climbers understand what it takes to climb it through better guides, it will continue to increase in popularity. Yes, when the world recorder holder comes out with a book about how cool Niad ing is, the route is going to get more popular (Hans set the Nose record when he was 49 - wonder how you old codgers would fair up there, haha). We'll see how the Nose fairs with more safe rappel stations. The idea here is to keep folks moving on the route, and to get people rappelling from Dolt to be independent of the route itself. Interesting too that no one compares this to what happened at Fifi Buttress here in Yosemite. Old guy Dan McDevitt saw how the new guys were outfitting their routes in the lower canyon, and how much more fun it was to climb long routes with one rope, etc., and Dan went and retro-fitted his old routes with belay bolts, rap rings, some new lead bolts - and Dan has also been establishing tons of new routes up there too. He'll talk to you in Yosemite any time. So make no mistake that these people hiding behind their internet names are jokers - Fifi now has a super-highway trail to it, one rope rapping on every route, and bolts all over the place - and the pro climbers and people who climb all the time love it. They talk about how awesome it is, how fun, etc. Getting so good here now! Look forward to seeing you out here! Woot Woot! Erik

All that glitters is not Gold, Erik.

I too have been seduced by adding convenience to my routes in Yosemite and getting a thrill out of the stoke shared by others after they climbed them.

This is John Tuttle who put up Sons of Yesterday with my friends and has seen some changes in Yosemite Valley and Serenity Crack in the last 30 years. I know something about route/environmental degradation despite original well meaning intentions.

I also was (briefly) the regional Access Fund Coordinator for Yosemite Valley in the early 90's when the building of climber access trails was on the table to reduce erosion at the base of popular routes.

I wonder how Dan (who I know briefly from years ago) will feel when there is an open pit toilet and used paper in the trees at the base of his routes? when he sees trees getting killed by erosion that "convenient style" development caused by bringing new hordes to the base or up on the routes? what's next, maybe some graffiti of the route names and grades at the base so people don't have to lug their phones to the base and use the MP app? Sure would be more convenient...

A superhighway trail is no accomplishment in this day. Knowing when not to build one is an accomplishment. Of course, there is a very fine line that is hard to find here and no slight is intended of Dan/Sue or their efforts. They have every right to put up their routes as they see fit.

But that is not the same as adding bolts to existing routes.

I just think you should slow your roll on this one. Yosemite will still be there, the Nose will still be there. Think it over with a long view.

ps Sons of Yesterday is 5.10A young man. :P

I haven't met Erik so I'm trying to suspend my judgement, but with every post he makes it increasingly difficult: The tone of his writing, content aside, is unfathomable to me.

From addressing thousands of climbers he doesn't even know with "Yo gang" (which happens to include a lot of people who clearly don't like him or don't like his actions), to the strange attempts to blow off criticism with a "that's hilarious" or "haha", to the "see you out there" (as if he is the proprietor of Yosemite and is selling his product), to the solicitation of money (or beer?) for his endeavor (which is not being done through a recognized national or local channel), to the "woot woot" sign offs... I don't even know how to describe the feeling this engenders other than that it projects a bizarre blend of narcissism / used-car salesman / crazy-person vibe. My girlfriend, a long time New Yorker, admonished me during my very first subway ride in the city years ago to "never engage with crazy" and that is precisely the phrase that keeps coming to mind as I read this thread (and others concerning Erik). It's clear that there is absolutely no ground to be gained by attempting to discuss this matter with him on the internet. I think many of the attacks on Erik are way out of line but at least with those people I can understand their frustration in dealing with someone who just won't listen.

As for the actual content of his post - this new rappel route on the Nose - I don't have much of an opinion on the matter other than, were I in his shoes, I'd be extremely conservative in ANY change I planned to make on something so globally iconic and revered amongst climbers as El Cap. Heck, there's a cracked piton on a pitch on Freerider that I've, for several years now, wanted to do something about but even that I'm reluctant to touch because of its potential impact to the history of the route and the experience of others.

That said, if people feel that this rap route is a mistake, and they feel helpless in attempting to talk Erik out of it, a very easy and effective solution would be to do a so-called "Dolt Run", rap the route with two ropes, and remove each and every one of these new bolts. It wouldn't be more than a day's work if that. It's not like Erik did a diplomatic poll of "the gang" beforehand, and it seems that, apart from a few neutral comments, the most opinionated people out there are actively posting up against these new anchors. A few years ago a handful of bolts appeared on the locally classic route "Olive Oil" here in Red Rocks. Was it a huge deal? No not really. But within a week climbers had removed all of them and patched the holes. Was it a bolt war? No - it was just crag stewardship with minimal fuss.

Josh, that pin is totally broken and unusable as of this spring. People have been placing some manky cams next to it instead. I have to agree about "not engaging with the crazy"...

Sloan,

Changing the rap route in this way is like doing an engine rebuild on a perfectly functioning engine; you are inviting more problems than you are solving. I understand some of the changes you have made to routes in the past, but you obviously haven't thought this one all the way through.

... moreover, TNIAD in lightweight style (one rope) is going to be a less daunting proposition, therefore subtracting from the experience by lowering the commitment for future ascentionists. Consequently, more lesser experienced climbers who don't know how to efficiently manage a tag will feel less intimidated trying TNIAD, which is inviting trouble.

Isn't climbing becoming soft enough already with the advances in gear, availability of move-by-move beta, smartphone apps...... unnecessary rap anchors? In what way do you think you are you propelling the sport of climbing, Eric?