Is this an acceptable belay anchor?

Climbinghorst wrote:If they're American yes. But if they're German, Austrian, Swiss, or Italian they might be doing something like that: or that: I like the second version for speed reasons.

Why would you lead belay with a Munter Hitch on a bolted sport climb? I would not climb with someone who wanted to use a hitch knot as my lead belay. If I'm up on some tower somewhere and I drop my ATC, sure... I can use something like that in a pinch. But it wouldn't be my go-to right out of the gate when we have modern belay devices readily available. Do sport climbers in Europe really use a Munter Hitch instead of a belay device? Like that's common practice?

If every belay has bolts then use a quad. Just leave it set up and simply move it from one belay to the next.
vimeo.com/126266822

Yes, in multi-pitch routes it's as common as the ATC-XP (maybe even a bit more), assisted braking belay devices are almost completely restricted to single-pitch routes. Even without the friction which you're gonna have on 35m length the Munter provides a similar holding force as an ATC-XP (both around 2,2 kN). And it doesn't need a dummy runner, pro clip or a second carabiner behind the ATC before the first clip of the leader. AND using the technique as seen on the second photo enhances the speed incredibly. I, on the other hand, would not like to be belayed by somebody with a GriGri on a multi-pitch route.

Funny, there seem to be some consistent differences in climbing cultures between Europe and the United States. Have fun in Switzerland! :)

@FourT6and2: As an American who lives in Germany, YES! for multipitch and alpine everyone belays off munters. Found it super weird at first but after having seen it many times and compared the speed/safety, it's actually a great and really fast method. It's taught as THE way to belay/standard in German Alpine Club (DAV) courses.

Keep in mind, it's for SPORT climbing, or well bolted climbs. And the alps are smaler, so better bolted (generally speaking) and bolts are more frequently replaced there and in local crags. So it's not a big deal. It's NOT/NOT the standard for iffy anchors or trad here.

SwabianAmi wrote:@FourT6and2: As an American who lives in Germany, YES! for multipitch and alpine everyone belays off munters. Found it super weird at first but after having seen it many times and compared the speed/safety, it's actually a great and really fast method. It's taught as THE way to belay/standard in German Alpine Club (DAV) courses. Keep in mind, it's for SPORT climbing, or well bolted climbs. And the alps are smaler, so better bolted (generally speaking) and bolts are more frequently replaced there and in local crags. So it's not a big deal. It's NOT/NOT the standard for iffy anchors or trad here.

Yeah, seems weird to me haha.

Climbinghorst wrote:assisted braking belay devices are almost completely restricted to single-pitch routes.

Why?

Is an ATC considered an "assisted braking device"? I'm not talking about using one in guide mode. I'm talking about right off your harness, like you would do when belaying your leader from the ground or while in a hanging belay.

Don't want to spam your thread, I sent you a message.

^?! Use a grigri on every mutliputch I do.

• because they're safer*

Climbinghorst wrote:Don't want to spam your thread, I sent you a message.

Why would an answer to a legitimate question be spam?

Because it's completely off-topic. I'm new to the forum and for that reason not accustomed to the habits here around. : )
If that's okay, then I'll post my reply here again then:
Officially the consensus in between the Alpine Associations here around is that belaying from the body in multi-pitch contexts can be quite dangerous. Let's assume that you are belaying a leading climber in the third pitch. Let's also assume that you don't have enough space to stand on a huge rock ledge. You are hanging in your self-belay, being directly attached to the anchor. In case of a hard fall, if your self-belay is too short, you might be violently dragged to the rock face, injuring yourself and probably letting go the rope. So consensus here in major parts of Europe is that non-expert climbers should not belay from the body, but directly from the anchor (as shown on the pics I've been posting). In that case using a GriGri (or similar devices, which might not let the rope run through below 4 kN) can lead to g-forces high enough to injure the leading climber in case of a consistent fall. This leaves two possibilities ATC(-XP) or Munter. Both, at a certain point, will allow the rope to run through the device (between 2 to 3 kN), limiting the stress for both the climber as well as the last bolt. Both have pros and cons, the ATC needs a bit of attention in the beginning as it alone won't hold a lead-fall into the belay-anchors. The Munter on the other hand might turn your rope into a crinkly-curly pigtail, if you don't pay attention.

FourT6and2 wrote: Why would you lead belay with a Munter Hitch on a bolted sport climb? I would not climb with someone who wanted to use a hitch knot as my lead belay.

A munter has better friction than an ATC.

There are plenty of reasons why you might prefer a belay device but to refuse to climb with somebody because they preferred a munter... That is just silly.

Why would you not want to be belayed by someone with a gri gri on a multipitch? It works great for belaying both the leader or the follower. In fact it is the smoothest/easiest way to belay a follower in terms of resistance to pulling the rope through the device. For belaying a leader it is extra peace of mind in case your belayer becomes incapacitated or is struck by an object. The gri gri saved my life when my belayer and I were struck by an object, knocking me off lead and temporarily causing my belayer to lose control of the brake strand.

I don't doubt it, but in a situation where the belay device is placed in the belay anchors the limit at which the rope starts running through the device (~4 kN in case of GriGri2), by that lowering the amount of force being delivered on the last used bolt and especially the belayer might get pretty high.

DrRockso wrote:In fact it is the smoothest/easiest way to belay a follower in terms of resistance to pulling the rope through the device.

That is a huge call.

In fact all sorts of convoluted methods have been invented by various people in order to allow the gri-gri to have smooth flow. Many accidents have resulted by poorly chosen methods.

lol I'll stick with a belay device. I was taught a Munter hitch is good to know in case you drop your ATC or it breaks or something. But I won't be tossing my belay device in the garbage and rocking a munter hitch any time soon. If a munter hitch is the preferred way to belay in Europe, that's cool and all. But I'm 'Merican. And I love three things: Baseball, guns, and mah belay device!

Oh also pizza. I love that too.

FourT6and2: what has American given the world? Chinese food, pizza and Chimichangas! baby

Who's been telling you to throw away your ATC? To be honest, in m-p routes I'm using either my ATC-XP or the Munter, depending on my mood and circumstances.

I love my Petzl Ball Lock, my ATC-XP, my Edelrid MegaJul AND my GriGri, depending on what I'm doing!

PS: Bring your ATC, but better to leave guns at home, the Swiss might put you into jail for up to five years, or charge you with up to 100.000 CHF for carrying them around. :)))

Buona arrampicata!

Wait, so I can't climb with my rifle in Switzerland???? I'm training for a new type of biathlon here: climbing + shooting. Didn't you hear? It's a new Olympic sport.

Also pizza.

SwabianAmi wrote:FourT6and2: what has American given the world? Chinese food, pizza and Chimichangas! baby

Ummm American (SIC) has given the world freedom and Metallica and Reese's PB Cups. You're welcome.

I'd say, first of all, the States gave us the Blues, second the Sludge and third the instruments to play hard and loud! Without the Blues we would all, in the best case, still be listening to Beethoven and Mozart, in the worst case to Volksmusik and Wagner.

Oh no, Olympics...