When did you start attempting mountaineering objectives without a guide?

I would like to get an idea of when others made the transition to attempt alpine objectives without a guide. What where your experiences that made you ready for unguided mountaineering.

I want to clarify that I do not think I am ready. I am trying to get an idea of what I should do to get to that point. I also would like to say I have a great deal of respect for mountain guides and the industry as a whole, but would like to get to a point where a guide is not necessary.

I'm trying to figure out what my next move is. I climbed Rainier this past May with RMI, which was a great experience. I've read The Freedom of the Hills and a few other books. I'm starting to get into rock climbing, getting familiar with ropes, anchors, etc. (not alpine specific, but skills to build on).

I would like to get to a point where I can attempt peaks like Shuksan, Sahale, and Forbidden Peak with a partner. I'm thinking a skills seminar with a guide service or AAI's Alpine Mountaineering and Technical Leadership part 1 course might be a good next step. Could a person be ready to attempt these peaks after a course like this?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Hard to answer. People are so variable.

Manual teansmissions are a good example - some will never really get it. Same thing with knots. Mountain sense is also a variable.

The things you are doing sound great. And you kind of know what you would have to deal with: route finding, poor weather, etc.

The million dollar question is do you think you are ready. Or, what do you think you and / or your partner need to not let things get out of hand?

Start with whatever objective you feel comfortable doing and then progress from there...

Ex. If you're looking to do alpine rock, start with easy trad climbing at a local crag and hard hikes. When you feel fit and comfortable with trad climbing, ease into a moderate alpine rock objective etc. etc.

For me, it was about knowing I had decent experience to avoid mistakes, but mainly that if a mistake was made, I had the skill set to get out of the situation on my own.

I was originally a rock and ice climber with no guided experience. I did the reading as you did, then took a skills seminar and summit climb of Rainier with RMI. This was very valuable for me to learn glacier travel, rescue and protection. I then signed up with RMI for the West Buttress on Denali. All that experience really paid off and gave me decent confidence in an alpine setting.

Last summer I went to the Bugaboos with a friend who had little glacier travel experience so I led that effort. We ended up linking up with another pair and approaching pigeon spire from bugaboo glacier which is much more heavily crevassed than the main approach and it went fine. We all were dialed in in our crevasse rescue. We went for technically easy objectives (similar in difficulty to the ones you mentioned) and that is important to me.

Ive made it a point to keep my objectives well within my limits when Im on my own, in the alpine.

There are some people who are willing to push a lot harder a lot sooner than I am. But thats where my level of risk acceptance is right now and Ive had some great trips gaining experience with and without guides.

Edit: being from MN meant I couldnt learn a lot of this stuff without going on "vacation" so for me it was worth it to hire a guide and learn a whole lot in the mountains, when I went. If you live in the mountains, finding a partner to teach you these things in the mountains will make a big difference.

I spent a lot of time before and after my guided trips trad climbing and ice climbing as those are and were my main climbing interests. So I was learning more about the environment than the technical aspects of climbing.

ChrisN wrote:Start with whatever objective you feel comfortable doing and then progress from there... Ex. If you're looking to do alpine rock, start with easy trad climbing at a local crag and hard hikes. When you feel fit and comfortable with trad climbing, ease into a moderate alpine rock objective etc. etc.

I'm of the "just go for it" variety so I think this is good advice. That being said, definitely do quite a bit of trad at local crags to get the systems down and such before heading into the high country. Efficiency is key when racing the weather or daylight on a long route, and shorter routes close to home are a good place to practice that.

Day 1. Ease into it.

Wally wrote:Day 1. Ease into it.

That's what she said

Sounds like you're in (or often in) Washington. I'd suggest doing some of the easy alpine peaks in Snoqualmie Valley. Fun and good practice!

Thank you all for the responses/insight. Great advice.

I do like the ease into it mentality....some professional instruction on crevasse rescue and alpine pro could pay dividends.

I think my biggest concern/obstacle is just lack of experience in the mountains and being able to read the conditions/terrain. I live in Houston which severely limits my time in the mountains. I think some type of skills seminar is in my future, then maybe a couple of lower risk objectives and just see how it goes from there!

lol, Bill Kirby.

J Sundstrom wrote:Sounds like you're in (or often in) Washington. I'd suggest doing some of the easy alpine peaks in Snoqualmie Valley. Fun and good practice!

Looks perfect, J Sundstrom. Thanks! I have some family in Tacoma, so it's works well for me to pay the PNW a visit once a year or so.

Coming from Houston, you'll need to keep your aerobic fitness and endurance up too. You don't have to be at 10,000 feet for altitude to make a difference. I live at about 2500 but notice the extra work at 6500 or so, riding a bike or something. How many flights of stairs are you good for? :-)

My one piece of advice:
Have a good idea of where you can realistically bail from without incurring major risk. Then get to that point and see how it looks. You're limited on opportunities, and even an attempt will be fulfilling and you will learn something from it. In the Cascades often times you can do the whole approach in some miserable conditions only for it to clear up right when you really start climbing, the people with pessimistic outlooks never got out of bed, but you can be summiting!

Great advice Jon, Thanks! I totally agree even an attempt is worthwhile.

Old Lady H, For Sure! I run a few marathons/triathlons every year, and be sure to get reacquainted with the stair master before any trip to the mountains. Thanks.

Don Morris wrote:what I missed was a sense of adventure.

Myself, if I want a sense of adventure, I go solo.

If I want to accomplish a specific alpine objective which I feel is too difficult for me to solo, nowadays I usually hire a guide (or go with a very experienced local partner).

What's led me to that is lots of experience with ski mountaineering on glaciers, which led me to conclude that for safety it was generally more important to choose the right year and the right day for the right route ... than it was to have a fairly-good partner.

I've had perfect "right" days spoiled by partners who had different alpine climbing style than mine, who weren't acclimatized, who didn't communicate well. I was not endangered, but I'd missed an opportunity to accomplish my objective.

From some other days with fairly-good partners, I told my story afterward to Sharon, and heard her reply: "So really you would have been safer soloing."

Three great things about going with a local professional guide:

• They know about great objectives (and special variations) that are never mentioned in the (American) magazines and websites.
• We almost always agree on style of climbing (and even if I think there's no need to rope up, they're so fast with managing it that we don't lose much time).
• We almost agree when conditions are not suitable for that route on that day, and we quickly agree on a worthwhile alternative.

"Guided" can be more of an adventure than you might guess, because many times I go with a guide on a route which they have never done before either -- sometimes we have disagreements about which way to go on a route. Without thinking much I can remember two clear cases where the guide got off route.

Ken

P.S. My advice: If you've got something resembling a full-time job, and a specific alpine objective you hope to accomplish, without getting into risks you don't really understand -- then hire a professional guide.

P.S. Crevasse rescue: If you choose to climb with a non-guide partner, and you think you're going to successfully perform an emergency rescue after taking a course, you're kidding yourself.

Jed, Thanks for the insight on AAI's AMTL courses. I think I'll be looking at theirs or an RMI's skill seminar for next year.

Don, I definitely hear you and appreciate what you are saying; a refreshing perspective. I am seeking that sense of adventure, which is one of the main reasons I'm looking at going unguided in the future. If I had more time during the year to complete smaller objectives I would look at jumping into it, but with my limited time I think some professional instruction will speed up the learning process and get me on bigger objectives sooner!

Ken, solid points. My job does take up most of my time and leaves me limited mountain time. I like the emphasis on partners. I have a cousin with similar ambitions and skill level to mine. Also, are you suggesting something other than a crevasse rescue training course?

Do a lot of backpacking to get your systems dialed and learn what you can get away without. People jump into the glamorous aspect (technical ropes) of mountaineering and ignore the backpacking part. Next thing you know your partner shows up at the trailhead with a walmart sleeping bag and a bag of hard-boiled eggs, so you end up carrying the bulk of the rope/rack.

Try climbing something that you already know the route of. For example, if you did the DC on Rainier with RMI, that would be a very cool route to try again on your own.

As a heads up though, RMI very much runs *guided * trips. Being able to follow on an RMI trip is significantly easier than following, for example, an AAI trip. RMI does a lot of work to reduce the responsibility of the climbers (to increase their safety, I would imagine).

I'd recommend doing a private climb or group training week with AAI with the intent to learn how to be self more sufficient.

Thanks, Cieneguita. I've been looking into the bugs over the past week or two. They seem like a good place to start. I wasn't familiar with Athabasca and Andromeda, from a quick glance they look about right. Thanks!

Shane HTX wrote:Are you suggesting something other than a crevasse rescue training course?

If by "alpine" you mean real glaciers, then to some day go without a guide for sure you need some knowledge and practice in crevasse rescue. Though I'd say a higher priority is just lots of days out on glaciers learning how the game is played.

Note that many of the crevasse-rescue procedures and equipment can be practiced first on dry land in a city/suburban area, which would save precious alpine trip days. (Sharon and I used to practice on a fire-escape).

Two fundamental problems: (a) Most crevasse rescue techniques work much better with a party of 3 or 4 persons and good communication. Party of 2 can get pretty tricky (and unsuccessful), especially with communication. Most books advise against party of 2 on a glacier. Most climbers nowadays do it anyway.
Having the same regular partner is valuable, and so then you and your cousin should take the same course (and then regularly practice the same communication protocols on dry land afterward).

(b) The crevasse in your training course is selected to offer a "friendly" configuration: gentle slope, no other crevasses real close by, nice stable weather.
But a real rescue situation might be much more complicated and difficult, so you need at least one partner with a great range of practice in improvising alpine skills -- and when the going gets wierd in the mountains, it often helps to have super strength alpine-specific. For party-of-2 rescue, really both partners should be armed with those qualities.
. . . (qualities which are critical for success and/or survival in loet of other unexpected true-alpine situations).

Is your cousin going to get those soon?
If not your cousin, Why would some other partner with those partners be interested to climb with you -- exactly on the days of your special trip?

Ken

Shane HTX wrote:I like the emphasis on partners. I have a cousin with similar ambitions and skill level to mine.

So sounds like you're thinking toward climbing lots of alpine routes with a partner who lacks well-practiced versatile alpine skills, lacks alpine-specific strength+endurance, lacks hundreds of days of alpine experience, and lacks local knowledge of key conditions where you're going. To me seems obvious that choice increases your level of risk.

Of course you're entitled to that choice. If we really wanted low risk, we'd climb indoors and swipe on our phones with occasional stairmaster workouts.

Keep in mind that alpine climbing is fundamentally meaningless. The mountains and glaciers just don't care about your achievements or your injuries. There are other meaningless outdoor achievements that have more manageable risks. But if getting into alpine in a more risky way somehow gives it meaning for you, OK I get it. Anyway ...

You will find that most of your friends and family have no clue about the goals and risks you are taking on. And
if you or your partner come back with most of your fingers amputated, none of your family or friends is going to say, "But at least they were taking on the more noble challenge of attempting to climb without a professional guide."

Ken

P.S. For learning and achieving true alpine without a guide, it's safer and eaiser and more fun to do it in Europe (and to learn it there). From Houston, straightforward to fly to great alpine-climbing locations -- like depart IAH at noon, arrive GVA 7:45, and be out on a real glacier in Europe before lunch the next day.

Doligo, good advice. I've grown up backpacking. I do a trip or two per year anywhere from 30 to 50 miles...and a few weekend trips in addition to that. I agree that a solid backpacking foundation helps with any backcountry activity.

Chris, I do like the idea of doing something I'm a little more familiar with, but Rainier might be a little heavy for my first attempt...I'm more comfortable on rock that ice at this point, so I may look for something with less ice and more rock...maybe, bugaboo spire... and gradually work to objectives with more ice/glaciers/crevasses.

Thanks for the clarification, Kenr, and good points on the issues with the classes. Europe would a fun option!