Learning from guides vs internet

Background, I'm new to climbing but I do have formal industrial rope rescue qualifications so have some idea what is going on.

The common mantra is to hire a guide. My concern is you are relying on single person/organisation for your knowledge. In climbing terms, no redundancy.

I have seen many sites, books and videos created by certified guides that are questionable and that concerns me greatly. Had this person been my only instructor, I wouldn't know any better. But if you watch and read widely enough you soon realise that their method may not be the best/outdated or just simply wrong.

A guide has its place in terms of practical application but for knowledge, I'm thinking dozens of different sources are better than just one.

Thoughts?

Guides are good for learning AND gaining experience, you can be technically safe and competent just from the inter-webs. If you have no trouble getting a competent partner it might be worth just doing a dozen hours or so of research.

It really depends on what you want to do, in my opinion. Single-pitch toprope or sport? You can definitely learn by reading a lot and watching videos, especially if the crag in question is relatively popular. Multipitch trad? You probably don't want to figure things out yourself if you can help it.

I recommend reading books, lots of them. When starting out my friends and I taught ourselves how to climb based on freedom of the hills, climbing anchors, etc. Not the best way to learn, but it works. Ideally do this and find a group of climbers that are more experienced and will let you tag along. The more in-depth knowledge base you get from reading books the more you can learn when you go out with other climbers and the better you will be able to evaluate how/why they do things.

Shane1234 wrote:I have seen many sites, books and videos created by certified guides that are questionable and that concerns me greatly.

What makes them questionable? Are you evaluating them based on your knowledge from rescue?

Shane,

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"The common mantra is to hire a guide. My concern is you are relying on single person/organization for your knowledge. In climbing terms, no redundancy."
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IMO regardless if you become a sport climber or go for multi-pitch routes on gear or take up ice climbing or mountaineering, you will get a good foundation from a set of small classes conducted by a reputable guide school. A small class has about 4 to 6 students. It can have different instructors on different days; usually 3 sessions.

It's harder to break a bad habit than to start with good practices. A bad safety habit can kill/injure you or your partner or both. A poor climbing habit or learning poor technique can hamper your progression for years. A good class teaches both technique and safety.

Guide organizations have tried to standardize safety "best practices". And to a certain extent new materials and devices have altered the safety techniques. Yet the basic safety principles have not changed much in 45 years.

Understand there are many accepted safe ways to do the same rigging. You increase your repertoire over time. Many bits of info you can learn from books, your climbing partners and the internet. Meanwhile, try not to get caught up in "this is the only way" type thinking. Nobody likes that guy who insists things always be the way he learned. Learn a few basic safety techniques and practices and why you do it that way

You didn't mention your location or age but if you can, ask around for what schools get a good recommendation. Guides are great people (cause it is not a job you do for money) but some are not perhaps the best communicators. Some "instructors" teach out of some "need". I, at times, question their competency to instruct. It's excellent you did some preparatory reading so you can ask probing questions.

Many of the things you will learn are kinestetic and best taught in person. In fact they need to be "over-learned" so they are at your fingertips in a high stress situation.

Alternately you can disregard all of this, take a belay safety class at the local climbing gym and go climbing outside with some friends. That works.

Honestly, what I've noticed is climbers (assuming you are climbing every weekend) get injured about 3 to 6 months into the sport and then are "at risk" again about 2 years into the sport when they think they know a lot. Taking guided classes doesn't inoculate you from overconfidence. It might, however, help with the lack of knowledge part.

Do your own research, climb with people less and more capable than you, and hire a guide to explore that which you stil have uncertainty plus there is high consequence.

Your question can not be answered yes or no. Too many variables both inside and outside your brain. But I do think a day with a guide, at least once, is warranted for most of us beginners today.

Yep, to answer some questions, Perth Australia and mainly single pitch sport climbing. No ice ice here baby (badda boom! ….groan…)

I have a more competent climbing partner who belongs to a very active climbing club.

We try to climb every weekend but it’s winter & raining so we may go for a month just on my woodie.

My assessment of dodgy content is based on what I’ve seen elsewhere and what others have said. Industrial rescue is quite different. You have a tonne of gear at your disposal and access is via stairs/lift. However some equipment and techniques are common.

I am learning there is no “right way”. That said, in my view employing a guide will only teach you their/their company’s way and you’d have no reason to question their methods unless you research widely. And I’ve done A LOT of research, much more than 12hrs.

And I’m in my forties though I’m not sure of the relevance?

Interestingly, being my first post and all, I was expecting to be truly chastised but it doesn’t seem to be the case. Seems like the answer is “it depends”. So at least in my scenario, it seems like there is no urgent need to go find a guide.

Try to read and learn everything you can from different sources. The School of Rock page on here is full of good stuff. Books cover everything from the basics to more advanced stuff. climbinglife.com/ has a lot of good instructional videos. Climbing Self Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations is a really good book for basic and advanced self-rescue practices.

If you don't mind having to sift through unhelpful answers, the forums here have a lot of good stuff. Anything from rgold is guaranteed to be good information, as well as stuff from Jim Titt. Bearbreeder has posted a lot of useful tips and tricks, although he sometimes has a condescending tone and gets into a lot of pissing contests.

Honestly, if you're willing to put in the time and effort practicing things you learn, a little bit of common sense, humility, and caution will keep you safe enough to learn on your own. A guide or experienced mentor will probably be a bit safer and faster, but if you don't have the $$$ for a guide and can't find a mentor, you can teach yourself. It is also easier and more fun to learn with a partner, as you may end up teaching each other little tips and tricks along the way. Also, never do something just because a book/mentor/guide told you to; find out the "why" behind stuff because this, along with experience, is how you develop good judgement that will help guide you.

IMO...
Read selected chapters of freedom of the hills. Read arno Inger's rock warrior's way. Climb routes that are very easy for you or place enough good protection to make you safe. Check your partner's belay, check your knot, know the difference between lowering and rappeling and communicate your intentions before leaving the ground. Learn how to bail safely and do it whenever you ought to. And always remember, "the leader must not fall".

"Learning from guides vs internet"

Definitely a two evils sort of deal...such is the reality of 'modern' climbing, however.

And be aware guides do things as much for their convenience and liabilities as your experience and learning.

The obvious answer is all of the above. Learn from all sources available, and where conflicts exists use your best judgement, and research the topic more thoroughly.

>> My concern is you are relying on single person/organisation for your knowledge. In climbing terms, no redundancy.

Now THAT'S a new application of the term "redundancy"! LOL

Lots of great advice in this thread. I'll only add that a really good guide will show you several ways of doing things, from setting toprope or multipitch anchors, to providing rappel safety. With a discussion of the pros and cons of each. We realize that doing this can result in "information overload" for the majority of clients, but a good guide will adjust the instructional content to suit the client, and you sound like you would be receptive to a broader discussion of these sorts of topics. Reading about these things ahead of time - either in books or on the Net - will help you process what the guide presents and thus prevent an overload.

When I wanted to learn to lead, I did not have a mentor available, so I read everything that I could find on the subject.

However, until I got instruction from a guide, I was always worried that I might have come to the wrong conclusions on my own. This made it difficult for me to really trust my protection (especially as a system), which made it difficult to me to progress as a leader.

A few days of working with a guide changed that for me; I no longer worry (much) that my protection might not be as good as I think it is. That one change really made a big difference in my confidence, and put me on a path of continuous learning (including from the internet).

Dig up copies of Royal Robbins' Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft, find someone who knows about as much as you do, and you're on your way.

I've heard rumors that there are one or two experienced climbers in Australia, so it is possible, if you find one of this species, that you could get a lot of valuable advice and feedback form that source.

There are several other things to think about.

1. Your risk tolerance. There is no question that you can learn entirely by yourself from books and the internet. Just understand that this is riskier. Since trad climbing is, in some sense, all about confronting and managing risk, a willingness to embrace at least some risk is a defining characteristic of trad climbers, and there are quite a few of us who are entirely or mostly self-taught. That said, I do think it helps to be young and stupid, and you are, at least in terms of age part of the equation, past that phase.

2. Competence variability. I'd question your characterization that there are "many sites, books, and videos created by certified guides" that are questionable, and I'd like to see the list you've made that is the source of that claim. Yes, there are things promoted by guides that might, in some sense, be questionable. And every now and then a highly competent guide publishes something, say in a magazine, that doesn't seem entirely sensible. But overall, there is far less variability in certified guide competence than you will find on the internet; in other words the chance that you will be poorly advised is exponentially greater on the internet than with any certified guide. You could cut down on this disadvantage by sorting the wheat from the chaff on the internet, but this requires precisely what you lack: experience.

3. Speaking of certification, there are various levels, and not all of them are a guarantee of all that much experience. The AMGA single-pitch instructor minimal requirements are (see amga.com/single-pitch-instr…)

* You are a Professional Member of the AMGA.
* You have a genuine interest in rock climbing and instructing novices on single pitch crags.
* You are at least 18 years old at the time of the course.
* You have at least 12 months prior climbing experience.
* You are an active climber with traditional lead climbing experience (leader placing pro).
* You have led a minimum of 15 traditional rock climbing routes (any grade).
* You are capable of comfortably climbing 5.8 while on a top rope.

If you meet these minimal requirements, there is a three-day course and a two-day exam. Now there are many highly-experienced climbers who have nothing more than this certification, (getting certifications is a major investment n both time and money) but as you can see, the certification itself does not correspond to a high level of expertise or climbing competence.

If you are looking for certification to assure an appropriate level of experience, I'd say the AMGA Advanced Rock Guide cert is the minimal qualification. This does not mean that guides with lesser certifications might not be appropriately experienced; it simply means that their certification doesn't reflect it.

This is all US stuff. I imagine that there are analogous situations in Australia. The international gold standard is IFMG certification. This includes alpine climbing disciplines as well as rock, and takes most people years to complete with a significant investment in course and exam fees.

4. Many of the arguments you see on the internet are, in reality, about options that are equally good and safe. Don't mistake the level of contention for any substantive differences in practice, and look for people who are able to support their claims with some kind of evidence beyond snarkiness. If something is a better way of proceeding, the advocate ought to be able to make a clear rational case for it.

Ultimately, I think you've set up a false dichotomy. The best thing you could do would be, through reading both books and internet, to build up the best theoretical framework you can, and, once armed with that background, spend some time with an appropriately certified professional. With an accumulated background of knowledge, you'll be in the best position to ask lots of questions and to benefit from the answers

Trying to not repeat what others have said exactly:

I don't think the common mantra is to hire a guide. I think the common mantra is to learn in person from experienced people instead of from the internet.

Climbers don't have to be guides in order to be experienced.

And, I would caution against learning the basics from the internet. There's too much misinformation on the internet -- low signal-to-noise ratio... And having someone evaluate your gear, anchors, etc in person is very valuable.

I echo other recommendations about reading books first, then going with experienced people and practicing / refining the book knowledge (truly experienced people, not randoms from a climbing club or meetup).

You're probably wondering, how do I find these experienced non-guide climbers?

That's part of where the book knowledge comes in. Read up on standard accepted methods so that you have some knowledge to vet people. Don't trust them blindly: start slow, get "climbing references", observe them in lower-risk situations, ask questions, and do whatever else you need in order to literally trust them with your life. Feel out their personality and ability to acknowledge their own limits, their judgment, etc. If they spray, stay away :D.

The book knowledge also gives you (at least nominal) info on how to save your ass by identifying egregious mistakes your new partners may make.

Of course, hiring a guide can fast-track you through that vetting process.

Obviously, your background in rope rescue will give you a head start on a lot of concepts for climbing.

And, yes, redundancy in information sources no matter what. Don't take one person or one book as The Truth on anything (I'd say the same about life in general ;-).

frank minunni wrote:Dig up copies of Royal Robbins' Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft.

Especially for the awesome illustrations!

If you make it clear that's what you want, a guide (properly trained and certified by an IFMGA organization) will teach you a full range of solutions to whatever you're doing. Most people can only handle learning one approach at a time, so it's just good pedagogy to start with teaching one way. It isn't because the guide doesn't know other ways or that she/he or the certifying body thinks there is "one true way".

Ive had beginners who learned both off guides and off da intrawebz ...

Theyve all dun stooooopid mistakes...

The difference?

Those who learned off guides know its stoooopid

Those who learned offf intrawebz insist that they never made any mistake and its corrct because sum lazy bear breeding AZN told em so on a certain intrawebz forum

Thats all there is to it

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Those who learned offf intrawebz insist that they never made any mistake and its corrct because sum lazy bear breeding AZN told em so on a certain intrawebz forum Thats all there is to it ;)

I've never taken a class or hired a guide with the purpose of learning how to climb. Instead of taking a class, I focused my efforts on reading a lot of books, reading a lot of forums, and climbing with climbers who were more experienced than me. It's certainly possible to become very experienced without actually paying someone to teach you, it's just easiest to pay someone. In effect, climbing with someone who is just as experienced as a guide can have the same end results as actually paying a guide, less the money part. As with anything in life, the more informed you are the better you will perform. Use all available resources, in-person and online, to maximize your learning potential.

20 kN is right, and that's a big part of how I've learned too. The rub is that when you're trying to learn, you largely aren't able to judge the skills of those teaching you. Hopefully you have other sources of information to help you spot the worst kinds of problems. This is the point of certification for guides--a third party verification element. My personal experience has been that even after many years of climbing with great mentors, time with AMGA guides who specialize in teaching rather than just being good climbers has accelerated my learning exponentially, especially in terms of learning more ways to skin the cat--the exact opposite of the "one true way" slur often tossed at guides. Have fun out there!