Are any of the new-school belay devices worth using? Also GiGi questions

Great discussion--

Here's another method of tying into the middle of a doubled twin or half-rope, in response to fromtheestuary's query above:

At the middle of your rope tie an overhand on a bite (leave the overhand a tad loose), with the resulting bite loop being about 14-18 inches in length. Now feed the bite through your harness's tie-in points, then feed the bite through the middle of the loosely-tied overhand. Now pull the bite through the overhand, cinch down the overhand, and then tie a half-grapevine around the two strands leading to the ends of the rope. Tighten it up and it's a pretty clean way of tying into the middle of the rope. Close it off with a 'biner (locker or non-locker) for an extra measure of security. It's a secure, dynamic connection, rather than two 'biners, which makes it a great choice if there's any chance of higher fall forces being generated.

Yo Sam--Indeed, but Scott Bennett already beat you to the punch above! Great techniques, all of 'em, in slightly different applications...

fromtheestuary wrote:Here's a question that arose in my mind from that CAMP video. He says he is following on a doubled half rope. Obviously the leader tied into the two ends, but what configuration did the follower have in terms of tying in? Rescue 8 with two lockers attached to belay loop? Figure 8 on a bight with two lockers? Just curious if I ever had to improvise in a situation like that.

In the very rare instance that I lead on a doubled over half rope, I actually prefer to tie into the middle. My reason is any kink that develops in the rope (and my rope always gets pretty kinky) is easier to get out with the ends on the belayer's side. This also give me the option to have two followers each tied into a strand. My preferred tie-in knot for this is the bowline on a bight. It is just slightly little more complicated to tie than the alpine girth hitch (both requires you to step through a loop of rope). I'm sure the girth hitch works, but the bowline just makes me feel better. The method Camp USA posted is much easier if you ever need to tie (or untie) at a hanging belay though.

I've had the megajul for a while now and just recently got the smart alpine. the megajul is awesome for belaying thinner ropes, readily locks off, and stupidly light as far as a belay device goes. if you count grams like some people it might be right up your alley. that said i absolutely hate lowering or rappelling with it. especially if there's cleaning to be done. pulling the thumb loop is like an on/off switch, with no fine control. best way i've found is to continuously hold the thumb loop up and lower like a standard atc with my other hand slowly letting the brake end slide through my hand. also not too fond of feeding slack quickly, but that's what i get for pulling a 10.1 through it. will leave a good raw spot between your thumb and index finger after a good day out. gloves are highly advised.

the smart alpine feels like the same idea as the megajul but opposite strategy. big and bulky and not quite as eager to lock on thinner ropes, but super smooth lowering and rappelling. both can be done one handed if you really needed to. the curved channel and extended thumb loop give a great fine control to the descent speed, with a nice wide spot to push on with your thumb so as not to create such a pressure point like the megajul. can belay all day without issue. if you don't mind the bulk and the extra $15, i strongly recommend the smart alpine over the megajul.

A failure to block condition can also take place when the blocking carabiner is clipped to the upper carabiner. Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlbewChUYUw

The picture CAMP posted of the setup with the 2 grey Photons eliminates all failure modes.

Interestingly, I picked up a Gigi-like device in Switzerland a couple years ago, and the instruction manual for it states to set the brake carabiner up in exactly the manner suggested by the video James posted above.

More discussion on correctly rigging the Gigi here, on Elevation Outdoors...

elevationoutdoors.com/the-k…

For tying into the middle of the rope I would use an overhand on a bight,put bight through your tie-in points and retrace the overhand as you would a figure eight.It may be a little bulky but it is a hard knot with no biner rattling around in the mix.
Thoughts on this method?
p.s. I know this is getting off subject a bit...

Re GiGi, which I do use...

With one rope, I recommend always capturing the device as described, even though he recommends just for <10mm. Of course probably most of us are climbing multipitch on sub 10mm anyways. It doesn't take any longer and develops a good habit and faster rigging in this configuration. "How thick is this rope?" is not a useful internal question that we need to be asking in this case.

More interestingly, I found a lightly used Gigi in a gear shop, it's purple and has a raised ridge along the center spine. Does anybody know about this version? An earlier version I assume? Seems like you have to rig the autoblocking biner on the side opposite the spine.

It's so you can still take in slack for the third after the second has fallen and vica versa. New versions still have it but it's more subtle.

The OVO instructions state that the minimum diameter for single rope use in guide mode is 10mm. Is this just because of the failure mode of the blocking biner flipping? And if so, does that mean that of that failure mode is prevented, the device will work fine on smaller diameter single ropes?

benlucky13 wrote:I've had the megajul for a while now and just recently got the smart alpine. the megajul is awesome for belaying thinner ropes, readily locks off, and stupidly light as far as a belay device goes. if you count grams like some people it might be right up your alley. that said i absolutely hate lowering or rappelling with it. especially if there's cleaning to be done. pulling the thumb loop is like an on/off switch, with no fine control. best way i've found is to continuously hold the thumb loop up and lower like a standard atc with my other hand slowly letting the brake end slide through my hand. also not too fond of feeding slack quickly, but that's what i get for pulling a 10.1 through it. will leave a good raw spot between your thumb and index finger after a good day out. gloves are highly advised. the smart alpine feels like the same idea as the megajul but opposite strategy. big and bulky and not quite as eager to lock on thinner ropes, but super smooth lowering and rappelling. both can be done one handed if you really needed to. the curved channel and extended thumb loop give a great fine control to the descent speed, with a nice wide spot to push on with your thumb so as not to create such a pressure point like the megajul. can belay all day without issue. if you don't mind the bulk and the extra $15, i strongly recommend the smart alpine over the megajul.

climbing friend,

1 - you are going to do the dying.

2 - use the mega jul if you want a one device for doing of all. If you use the proper style karabiner (fat, round, pear as specified in user manual) and know what you are doing, it is no more difficult or finicky than a grigri, does not rope burn your hand or cause blisters, and does allow for fine control of lowering/rappelling speeds. do not try to rappel in the auto locking mode because yes it is probably terrible. simply turn device around and use as a deadly ATC style tube device. If you have trouble rappelling or lowering and cannot understand why, you need to re-evaluate your life.

3 - do not utilize the deadly ATC or other tube device. No one will want to be belayed by you and they will exchange uncomfortable glances with others before tying in with you.

4 - Have fun time euro dance party after day of bold flash.

5 - Ho ho ho ha ha myyyyyyaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Owen Witesman wrote:The OVO instructions state that the minimum diameter for single rope use in guide mode is 10mm. Is this just because of the failure mode of the blocking biner flipping? And if so, does that mean that of that failure mode is prevented, the device will work fine on smaller diameter single ropes?

Owen- The dimensions of the Ovo accommodates much smaller diameters- I believe CAMP rates them down to 8mm on half ropes. I run 7.6 halfs with my Ovo and it autoblocks 100% reliably with them. Same with an 8.7 single.

@Owen: Despite what the device may be rated for based on rope diameter, I'd still encourage some specific testing. In theory, eliminating the failure mode should solve the problem. However, it might not entirely. If the device is rated to 10mm, but your 10mm rope is particularly new skinny, and slippery, you might still be able to invert the ropes at least partially, even after eliminating the failure mode. Or perhaps you have a 9.7mm rope that is from a manufacturer whose ropes typically run "fat," and it's also older and a bit swollen and fuzzed up. That rope might work fine, despite the indicated size. You should be able to test this pretty easily at ground level.

Derek DeBruin wrote:@Owen: Despite what the device may be rated for based on rope diameter, I'd still encourage some specific testing. In theory, eliminating the failure mode should solve the problem. However, it might not entirely. If the device is rated to 10mm, but your 10mm rope is particularly new skinny, and slippery, you might still be able to invert the ropes at least partially, even after eliminating the failure mode. Or perhaps you have a 9.7mm rope that is from a manufacturer whose ropes typically run "fat," and it's also older and a bit swollen and fuzzed up. That rope might work fine, despite the indicated size. You should be able to test this pretty easily at ground level.

+1

Thin ropes can still slip past each other even in the absence of the blocking biner rotating (the problem discussed in the video). This has been seen with the ATC-Guide and I believe it's addressed by Petzl in their Reverso info. Best to use a device that has tight slots. I will never get rid of my first Generation Reversino for this reason.

And the raised ridge on the Gigi is the blocking biner side (NOT opposite it, as Hiro supposes). I was taught that the ridge allows the second strand to be manipulated if one of the strands is loaded (e.g. one of two followers has fallen), an apparent limitation of other "guide mode" devices.

Yeah, I'll test it. I'm just trying to wrap my head theoretically around how one rope in the device can possibly be different from two once the failure mode is eliminated when two ropes potentially works all the way down to 8mm (depending on the rope of course). Perhaps it is just a matter of remaining wiggle room even after limiting the blocking biner. The instructions are clear enough if one isn't interested in knowing *why*. Other manufacturers do a better job of that.

doc.camp.it/Manuali/OVO_MAN…

I know the conversation has taken a bit of a turn, but I really like the new Mammut Bionic Alpine Belay. Bentgate Mountaineering Review - Bionic Alpine Belay

It's super lightweight, sturdy, and has a reliable and easy guide mode.

Owen Witesman wrote:Yeah, I'll test it. I'm just trying to wrap my head theoretically around how one rope in the device can possibly be different from two once the failure mode is eliminated when two ropes potentially works all the way down to 8mm (depending on the rope of course). Perhaps it is just a matter of remaining wiggle room even after limiting the blocking biner. The instructions are clear enough if one isn't interested in knowing *why*. Other manufacturers do a better job of that. doc.camp.it/Manuali/OVO_MAN…

I'd be interested to know at what diameter you can get the double ropes to invert (if at all). I would guess it might be possible, but it's a pretty significant edge case wherein there would need to be strong sideways loading in the same direction on both ropes simultaneously.

In the single rope scenario, sideways loading on a skinny rope can cause inversion because the braking carabiner can rotate freely. With two ropes, that rotation would be extremely hard to achieve, particularly if you are belaying two followers on separate lines moving at different speeds at different points on the climb.

Owen Witesman wrote:Yeah, I'll test it. I'm just trying to wrap my head theoretically around how one rope in the device can possibly be different from two once the failure mode is eliminated when two ropes potentially works all the way down to 8mm (depending on the rope of course). Perhaps it is just a matter of remaining wiggle room even after limiting the blocking biner. The instructions are clear enough if one isn't interested in knowing *why*. Other manufacturers do a better job of that. doc.camp.it/Manuali/OVO_MAN…

• Here at CAMP USA we have employees, affiliate AMGA guides, and sponsored athletes who constantly use the OVO with half or twin ropes down to 7.6mm and single ropes in any diameter currently being made. We have never heard of (or witnessed) a problem with the device not locking due to rope size when a follower hangs or falls.
• Listing an absolute minimum diameter for ropes is nearly impossible because of variations in rope manufacturing and coatings, ropes becoming wet or icy, rope changes over their lifespans, etc.
• It's best to think of the ropes sizes listed (8-9mm for twin/half, 9-10mm for single) as general guidelines.
• When belaying up a single follower on a single strand, make sure to prevent the brake carabiner from twisting and letting the rope strands invert.

Give us a call or email if anyone has additional questions:

CAMP USA

Thanks CAMP for the clarification! You might consider updating your printed specs to match the explanation you just gave. I get that it's hard to give absolute numbers for rope diameters, but right now the printed instructions make the device sound nearly useless for modern single rope use (most sub-10mm). I look forward to taking the OVO out for a spin!