Preplaced draws on a sport route

csproul wrote: I'm not sure you understand what "following" means. Hint, the word "following" is well defined in climbing and it is not leading on preplaced draws. And no, I could not care less if one climber placed the draws or not. Your scenario is also artificial. This is more like it: If we have two people and person A uses all their effort to hang draws and climb a 12b while person B uses that same amount of effort to climb a 12c with preplaced draws, which would you be more proud of?

I know quite well what following is in the general climbing context. But since I defined my meaning in that post as a way help describe what I was talking about you're clearly just looking for any excuse to try and discredit or belittle me. But to me it just sounds like you're not capable of reading in context.

Your situation is just as contrived as mine. But since you asked I give more credit to the 12c climber because he climbef a harder route.

But turn that around: a climber places his draws on a 12c using all of his effort get's more credit than one who uses all of his effort to climb the same 12c on preplaced gear.

If it really doesn't matter then why does the climbing community even distinguish between redpoint and

Tim Lutz wrote: what impresses you doesn't impress most climbers in 2016. sorry. apples and oranges. Leading is leading and top roping is toproping. If you use pre-placed draws you aren't toproping.

Obviously I agree, but it seems that's the next logical step in the argument when you say placing the gear has no meaning. Why does clipping it? I mean heck, depending on how the wall was bolted you may not even need to climb above your gear to clip the preset draw.

Now, you could also argue there's a difficulty cut off for when it stops mattering, but then who's the judge of when that is?

Tim Lutz wrote: you are doing a great job all by yourself! They don't since about 1998. Even getting fuzzy in Trad world; Dawn Wall, preplaced draws and even gear.

Maybe in your eyes.

Funny, I seem to see and hear people talking about it still in 2016.

Five15Factor2 wrote:Anyone who seriously cares about this shit is a twat

+1

caughtinside wrote: Hard sport climbing is about trying to do hard climbing. There is no glory in attaching a QuickDraw to a bolt. It does make it more difficult, but in a nuisance kind of way.

Right: it makes it more difficult. In whatever way it does. The climber has better endurance, grip strength, whatever. If you can't climb the route without pre-placed gear, and someone else can, it shows a difference in conditioning - which is an important aspect to performance in any sport.

Like I said in my first post - I'm not belittling anyone's accomplishment. I'm just saying there is a difference.

And like I said before: depending on the route, whether you should or not is completely independent of the argument. If it's not practical, and no one wants to bother cleaning that 5.14 steeply overhung route, and no one tries to climb it without fixed draws then the whole argument doesn't matter anyway.

If the people climbing at that level don't care, and don't consider it an influencing factor on competition then that's fine too. But that doesn't mean it's the same.

Brian L. wrote: I know quite well what following is in the general climbing context. But since I defined my meaning in that post as a way help describe what I was talking about you're clearly just looking for any excuse to try and discredit or belittle me. But to me it just sounds like you're not capable of reading in context. Your situation is just as contrived as mine. But since you asked I give more credit to the 12c climber because he climbef a harder route. But turn that around: a climber places his draws on a 12c using all of his effort get's more credit than one who uses all of his effort to climb the same 12c on preplaced gear. If it really doesn't matter then why does the climbing community even distinguish between redpoint and Obviously I agree, but it seems that's the next logical step in the argument when you say placing the gear has no meaning. Why does clipping it? I mean heck, depending on how the wall was bolted you may not even need to climb above your gear to clip the preset draw. Now, you could also argue there's a difficulty cut off for when it stops mattering, but then who's the judge of when that is?

No, you incorrectly used a word well defined in climbing terms. You either a)did it because you're clueless about the meaning or b)did it on purpose in order to belittle the act of clipping pre-hung draws since most will agree that "following" is easier (generally, not always) than leading. Redefining words to suit your argument is not placing the word in context, it is just wrong.

csproul wrote: No, you incorrectly used a word well defined in climbing terms. You either a)did it because you're clueless about the meaning or b)did it on purpose in order to belittle the act of clipping pre-hung draws since most will agree that "following" is easier than leading. Redefining words to suit your argument is not placing the word in context, it is just wrong.

Actually, you're reading too much into that. What I'm ignorant in is a term that described someone climbing a route on lead after someone else has climbed and placed the draws. Is there a simple term for that?

I used quotations, and a parenthetical definition of what I meant to try to separate it from the normal definition. Pretty standard stuff. I can't possibly imagine you didn't understand what I was saying. But you are pushing a nice red herring by trying to make it an issue.

Would you like me to go back and re-word it so I don't use the "follower" term. Then we can discuss the point of the post, instead of the nit-picky details of word-smithing?

Brian L. wrote: Actually, you're reading too much into that. What I'm ignorant in is a term that described someone climbing a route on lead after someone else has climbed and placed the draws. Is there a simple term for that? I used quotations, and a parenthetical definition of what I meant to try to separate it from the normal definition. Guess you just didn't have a capability to understand that...

There is a simple term for that....sport climbing! Just kidding, sort of, that term would be a pinkpoint (assuming you sent). But that is also an antiquated term as far as sport climbing goes. Nobody is arguing that placing draws isn't harder, it's just that the vast majority of sport climbers consider it to be harder in an aspect that they care little about and would much rather place that effort in what they do care about...climbing. Do you have the capacity to understand that?

Repeating things in better style doesn't get the respect it used to. Despite hundreds of years of climbing history. I'm not sure why those (the majority around here) who express the sentiment - "I'm only interested in climbing hard (defined in a very narrow manner)not risk" insist on calling themselves "climbers" or their sport "climbing" when they are not interested in most of what climbing historically involved. Just call it vertical gymnastics and everyone would be happy.

csproul wrote:Nobody is arguing that placing draws isn't harder, it's just that the vast majority of sport climbers consider it to be harder in an aspect that they care little about and would much rather place that effort in what they do care about...climbing. Do you have the capacity to understand that?

My point is it does indicate a difference in climber ability (conditioning, see my post two up).

OK. climbers don't care (anymore). Of course I get that. But think about this. They don't care maybe because right now the focus is on climbing these super hard routes. What if, in the future, that becomes much more common. Sort of like how back in the day the hardest route was a 5.9. Then we started climbing harder and harder as gear and technology progressed. Climbers USED to care, and they could care again. Setting the draws could become a way to distinguish yourself again.

Ondra pinkpointed a 5.15c. If someone wanted to try and one up him, they might potentially try to redpoint it. You say the community wouldn't care, but since we agree it is harder, I think that view may not be accurate.

And that's all I'm saying.

caughtinside wrote: You should stop referring to hanging draws as pre placed gear, it just sounds like you are applying a trad style to a different game with different rules.

Yeah, I actually did in the next post. You guys are such vocabulary nazi's. Last I checked a draw was a piece of gear. But I know what you mean. Hey, I'm not calling it "pro".

caughtinside wrote: ell, I was bored and reeled in by a noob troll. I'm going to withdraw now and go pinkpoint.

caughtinside wrote:Trolled again!!

Looks like everyone who disagree's with you is a troll. Got it.

The term 'pink point' is an American construct invented by yanks in the late 80s/early 90s to belittle sport tactics. The rest of the world does not give a toss. Look up the history of 'rotpunkt' if you care about history of the sport style red point.

caughtinside wrote: I believe I also allowed the possibility that you are a total noob or a lost trad climber trying to apply some rudimentary style knowledge to a different game.

Ah, the age old tactic of insuting someone when you don't actually want to address their point. Shit. Who's trolling who now?

caughtinside wrote: ...Sport climbing has style improvements but they are about actual climbing. Onsight > flash > Redpoint. 14d has been on sighted so there is definitely an interest in pushing standards there. Draws were hanging though!

Fun fact: Ondra has also sent 5.14+ while hanging his own draws. So, by the definitions of all the lost trad climbers here, he still "redpoints" pretty hard.

I'm not sure what the hardest route climbed with a watermelon girth-hitched to one's scrotum is, though. That's the true next-level style.

I don't define ignorance as questioning the norm, or popular opinion.

But keep the insults coming. This is fun.

How about this one. If there is no additional glory in sending a route without prehung draws - is there negative glory in soloing that route? For many obvious reasons soloing is physically easier - yet there still does seem to be some hoopla around soloing.

That's not a good argument. Soloing has significant mental impact, even if it may be slightly physically less stressful.

Moof wrote:They are weak sauce. Call a pink point a pink point.

So you're telling me after every fall you clean all the draws and start over again?

Tim Lutz wrote: that IS only way to impress Brian L.

WOOOSH!

That was the sound of my point going over your head.

Brian L. wrote:That's not a good argument. Soloing has significant mental impact, even if it may be slightly physically less stressful.

Well since you admitted this, can you at least stop bringing up your stupid top-roping argument? Thanks.

wow.

That dis was SO hardcore; I don't have comeback
What can I say? I'm a master shit talker.

Nathanael wrote: Well since you admitted this, can you at least stop bringing up your stupid top-roping argument? Thanks.

You mean the thing I mentioned once, as an exaggeration of the argument that setting draws doesn't matter? Yeah, sure wont bring it up again. Not sure why you think I'm repeatedly bringing it up in the first place......