Preplaced draws on a sport route

Pnelson wrote:It's often irrelevant in modern gear-protected climbing, because most folks who consider themselves "trad" climbers while placing gear on lead nonetheless still project their climbs by hangdogging, sussing out gear placements, etc.

That may be true for trad climbers who are trying to put up the hardest possible (for them) climb on gear. In my experience, though, this is not the base for most folks who consider themselves trad climbers, or at least, not for most of the climbs that they climb. Many to most of them are doing either un-rehearsed climbs, or repeats of climbs they've climbed on gear before, but which were first attempted unrehearsed. (Repeats because they may have access to limited climbs, so they have to go back and repeat stuff, or because they enjoyed it enough to repeat it.)

Matt St. Peter wrote: This thread gon' be good! Probably lots of reasonable arguments.

Hahahha... I love the sarcasm. Probably the best thing that would result from this "discussion". Carry on gents, I want to hear more about how projecting the warmup climb while hanging your very own draws makes you a better human being.

Draws are for posers.
The only true send involves photographic evidence. Duh.
If you don't tick it on MP while at the anchors, it didn't happen.
Onsight cleaning is the only true ethic.
Fixed draws and a stickclip are great for routes I have no hope on.
Most importantly, Yer gonna die.

lame.

this again?

I understandt the need to have draws up while projecting the route. It would be pain to clean them after each attempt. But, why not place them on lead when you are ready for the send? All I'm trying to say is that,in my honest opinion, any hard route is more difficult if you are placing draws on lead. I'm just pissed off because I read someone's comment that placing draws on lead is effortless and that is why most climbers leave them up.

Jon H wrote:The only thing more irritating than a 5.13 climber spouting off about ethics is a 5.9 climber spouting off about ethics.

These comments baffle me. What does climbing hard have to do with knowledge about climbing ethics? You're telling me a 16 year old gym rat that can send 5.13 knows more about ethics than a middle aged person that's climbed longer than the gym rat has even existed?

Fehim Hasecic wrote: I'm just pissed off because.. idiotic, inconsequential reason.

I'm not sure I could get through the first 7 minutes of my morning commute without murdering someone if my tolerance for frustration was this low.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:I understandt the need to have draws up while projecting the route. It would be pain to clean them after each attempt. But, why not place them on lead when you are ready for the send? All I'm trying to say is that,in my honest opinion, any hard route is more difficult if you are placing draws on lead. I'm just pissed off because I read someone's comment that placing draws on lead is effortless and that is why most climbers leave them up.

You obviously haven't projected routes much. When you are truly projecting a route you really have no idea when you are going to send, it might be next try, it might be 10 tries from now, there is no way of knowing.

Obviously a route is harder if you are placing draws on lead, but as Paul mentioned, this is sport climbing, you didn't place the pro so why should it matter what is attached to that pro. Maybe we should all start removing nuts and hangers from the bolts after every ascent as well, I know it would be a lot harder if I had to put a hanger on the bolt, thread the nut on, then clip a draw, we should really be doing it that way when we are ready for the send.

I guess you have to ask yourself the question of whether the point is to climb hard or to artificially make the climb harder by adding unnecessary steps.

Tapawingo wrote: These comments baffle me. What does climbing hard have to do with knowledge about climbing ethics? You're telling me a 16 year old gym rat that can send 5.13 knows more about ethics than a middle aged person that's climbed longer than the gym rat has even existed?

Well, when the topic at hand is ethics of hard sport climbing, I think someone with any experience on hard sport routes is going to know more about ethics related to hard sport climbing than someone with absolutely no experience with hard sport climbing regardless of how long that person has been chuffing their way up gnarly 5.9's.

Tapawingo wrote: These comments baffle me. What does climbing hard have to do with knowledge about climbing ethics? You're telling me a 16 year old gym rat that can send 5.13 knows more about ethics than a middle aged person that's climbed longer than the gym rat has even existed?

Who's to say that the 5.13 climber is a 16 year old gym rat? And why do you assume that the 5.9 climber is some middle aged chuffer?

There are good climbers and mediocre climbers across all age and experience brackets. Not to mention that some of the "old school" climbers grew up in an era where accepted ethics are significantly frowned upon today. Who's to say that the old guy knows any better?

can this not turn into another MP ethics thread. It was a simple question.

Yes, pre-placed draws make it easier, but not so much so that you'll see a grade boost. It's common on steep sport routes where cleaning the draws is a ton of work or hard routes that are popular. The fist might have taken a bit longer, but who cares. As soon as any of us punters go send hard in Flatanger without fixed draws we can revisit this.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:I understandt the need to have draws up while projecting the route. It would be pain to clean them after each attempt. But, why not place them on lead when you are ready for the send?

Do you not see that you can't places draws on lead if you don't clean them after each attempt?

Look at what a redpoint attempt looks like on a hard overhanging route. Most importantly, note what happens when he falls.

youtube.com/watch?v=Uo64D1-…

Assuming Ondra wanted to place his draws on lead he would need to bring jumars to jug up like 30+ feet on a freehanging rope. And then what? Lower off a single bolt (ignoring 1 million collective MP posts about proper TR anchors ) while he cleans the draws below, which in itself would be a physically demanding task on a route this overhanging? Or I guess he could finish the climb (easy right?) and lower off his locking carabiner quickdraws that I'm sure he has at the top. That way there isn't a single pre-placed quickdraw to tarnish the ascent.

But since that seems like a lot of extra work, why don't we just say that when attempting cutting edge sport climbs we let people use permadraws. BUT, we require each climber attempting a redpoint to carry a rack of quickdraws on lead. At each bolt they take a draw off their harness, touch it to the bolt, and then just drop it to the ground. Then they clip the permadraw. This mimics the extra effort that 5.11 sport climbers are required to exert when they are onsighting 5.10 at their local crag, without the obvious inconvenience of cleaning after each attempt. After the attempt you lower down and go gather the scattered draws you dropped and you're ready for another go. Problem solved.

While I would say the prehung draws are the accepted method ascent for sport climbing it sadly appears that this is no longer limited to the realm of sport climbing.

Exhibit A: Dawn Wall

Jon H wrote: Who's to say that the 5.13 climber is a 16 year old gym rat? And why do you assume that the 5.9 climber is some middle aged chuffer? There are good climbers and mediocre climbers across all age and experience brackets. Not to mention that some of the "old school" climbers grew up in an era where accepted ethics are significantly frowned upon today. Who's to say that the old guy knows any better?

You're missing the point. I'm saying that there is no correlation between how hard one climbs and their knowledge of the subject matter. But I get what you're saying about the old school climber frowning upon today's ethics and who's to say what's acceptable.

Karsten wrote:While I would say the prehung draws are the accepted method ascent for sport climbing it sadly appears that this is no longer limited to the realm of sport climbing. Exhibit A: Dawn Wall

No longer? Who do you think left the fixed gear & tat? Much of it I'm sure Tommy & Kevin didn't even touch. But apparently adding draws on traverses pushes over the boundary.

Tapawingo wrote: I'm saying that there is no correlation between how hard one climbs and their knowledge of the subject matter.

Of course there is, it just isn't the sole indicator.

Anyone who seriously cares about this shit is a twat

Karsten wrote:While I would say the prehung draws are the accepted method ascent for sport climbing it sadly appears that this is no longer limited to the realm of sport climbing. Exhibit A: Dawn Wall

If another party comes back and does Dawn Wall without pre-placed gear it will be that much more of an awesome ascent. There is nothing wrong with a pink-point, it is just significantly weaker sauce than an actual red-point, which is much wimpier than an on-site. Should we start saying that a TR lap is just as good? Just a pre-placed rope after all...

Five15Factor2 wrote:Anyone who seriously cares about this shit is a twat

I laughed when I onsighted this line.

Maybe I'm trying to compensate for my mediocrity in climbing by asking frivolous questions. All I wanted to know was would it be harder to lead sport while placing draws on lead vs leading on hanged draws. I guess I hit the cord with some folks and they think that I'm trying to downplay level they think they're climbing at. Mission accomplished.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:Maybe I'm trying to compensate for my mediocrity in climbing by asking frivolous questions. All I wanted to know was would it be harder to lead sport while placing draws on lead vs leading on hanged draws. I guess I hit the cord with some folks and they think that I'm trying to downplay level they think they're climbing at. Mission accomplished.

Yes, in most cases it'd be easier. But for most sport climbers, it is easier in an aspect that is irrelevant to the goal of sport climbing; that is climbing harder, not clipping harder. If you place value in clipping as part of climbing, then by all means don't pre-hang your draws. Just don't be surprised when nobody else cares.