Freedom of hills belay technique pg 160-161

I'm reading freedom of the hills book and I'm into belay techniques. I was a little surprised of the technique for taking in rope.

I take my feeling hand put it behind my brake hand and slide my brake hand forward while in the breaking position.

I have seen both techniques but always thought doing it in the brake position to be safer.

Sorry if this is beat to death just want some opinions on this.

ClimbingNewb wrote:I'm reading freedom of the hills book and I'm into belay techniques. I was a little surprised of the technique for taking in rope. I take my feeling hand put it behind my brake hand and slide my brake hand forward while in the breaking position. I have seen both techniques but always thought doing it in the brake position to be safer. Sorry if this is beat to death just want some opinions on this.

This subject has, indeed, been beat to death. And the beating will continue!

I have the 5th edition of FOTH (yikes) so it isn't on page 160, but I believe what you are referring to is on page 118 of my edition. It shows both the "pinch and slide" and a variation of the B.U.S. (brake, under, slide) method.

Both work fine and are safe. Some people will tell you the pinch and slide is unsafe because when both strands are parallel you are more likely to drop a climber when he falls.

I think it is fine, if you are proficient at it. I've read comments where people will say, "If you belay me like that, I won't climb with you." Just like, "If you use a Cinch, I won't climb with you." So there are some strong feelings on this issue. Like every other issue on MP!

Here are some previous discussions: (the first one is most relevant)

mountainproject.com/v/slap-…

mountainproject.com/v/belay…

mountainproject.com/v/how-d…

mountainproject.com/v/belay…

Yes nolan thank yout for the wisdom and concern.

My idea is multiple sources.... my thought process is you can't believe everything an "experienced climber" tells ya at the local crag no matter how many years or what rating they can climb. Doesnt necessarily mean everything they speak is truth. Same goes for books etc.

I do go climb with more experienced peeps but like to back everything up with multiple sources. I feel it my responsibility to so.

ClimbingNewb wrote:you can't believe everything an "experienced climber" tells ya at the local crag no matter how many years or what rating they can climb

+100

Some good info here.

youtube.com/watch?v=BOIAYx-…

It did not cause me to fail my belay test but at movement they asked me to stop doing the hand over hand belay shown in that video. I would say whatever a gym asks you to do in ther facility is the right thing to do.

The 'pinch and slide' seems like it would work (and was probably used originally) for hip belays where your braking position is more of an 'up' position.
It is still widely taught and used with modern devices though I'm not sure it's the best method...but whatever, just don't fall.

simplyput wrote:The 'pinch and slide' seems like it would work (and was probably used originally) for hip belays where your braking position is more of an 'up' position. It is still widely taught and used with modern devices though I'm not sure it's the best method...but whatever, just don't fall.

Its great for munters because of the braking position

Of course these days many folks cant even tie a munter without looking it up on their iphone

;)

bearbreeder wrote: Its great for munters because of the braking position Of course these days many folks cant even tie a munter without looking it up on their iphone ;)

That makes sense (both comments).

simplyput wrote: That makes sense (both comments).

one thing about using a munter is that if one sees a big fall coming its pretty easy to put BOTH hands on the brake strand, as its parallel right in front of you ... and hang on for dear life

also you dont need to worry too much about the angle ... in that way its probably "safer" than any tube device

while it does provide more braking power with the strands parallel ... with a fixed point belay, once you get the first piece in, youll be braking with the strands apart ... and it works just fine catching falls that way

its also MUCH easier to use it with your off hand ... so in those weird belay spots or if you brake hand is a bit tweaked, you can use your other hand

just dont use it for lowering because of the rope twisting

for multi its great though as you dont lower for long stretch too often ... munter + gigi (for rappel and autoblock/ascending) is really all one ever needs with ~ 10mm ropes

;)

Rick Blair wrote:It did not cause me to fail my belay test but at movement they asked me to stop doing the hand over hand belay shown in that video. I would say whatever a gym asks you to do in ther facility is the right thing to do.

I wish you were around for all the assholes I had to test and they thought "well this is how I do it at X" was a good line of reasoning.

simplyput wrote:The 'pinch and slide' seems like it would work (and was probably used originally) for hip belays where your braking position is more of an 'up' position. It is still widely taught and used with modern devices though I'm not sure it's the best method...but whatever, just don't fall.

I've seen all sorts of people lambasting the "pinch and slide" (we used to just call it belaying) online, saying that proponents don't understand how modern belay devices work, and other such nonsense. I learned how to belay with a hip belay, ATC, Sticht Plate, Figure 8, 4 oval carabiners, a Muntner Hitch, and a brake bar device.

If the climber falls, you brake. It doesn't matter how you're feeding the rope in terms of whether you are a safe belayer or not (assuming you are taking up or feeding slack at an appropriate rate for the speed of the climber you are belaying).

The beauty of the P&S method is that it works well whether or not you can see the climber, whether you are top rope belaying from the base of a climb or belaying a second from the top of the pitch. And yes, it works regardless of the type of belay device (or even if you are giving a hip/body belay).

I would much rather climb with someone who can also belay me without a device than someone who is worried about whether I use a pinch and slide or a "universal belay standard" technique.

Edited to add: I have though been switching (I've given 3 or 4 lead belays this way indoors and outdoors) to a palm down belay while lead belaying. The reason is that my wrists are a little tweaked from climbing in the gym all winter (my first in an actual winter climate after moving from CA to CO), and I my wrist appreciates not having to twist to take up slack or catch a fall. Maybe it will stick, who knows.

I do know that I have never dropped a climber while belaying in my 22 years of climbing.

I heard a rumor, that I am inclined to believe because it came (originally) from someone involved with the AAC's "Gold Standard" (now called 'universal belay' (from the video posted above)), that the next edition of FoTH will feature the PBUS (Pull Brake Under Slide) method of belaying instead of slip-slap-slide.