The end of an era (small cam choices)

I've never seen a fixed Totem cam, I have seen plenty of fixed Mastercams, x4s etc... I personally would get the Totem Basics, they won't walk, are more flexible and just feel more bomber. Plus they will almost certainly be cheaper where you live. I've had no issue with durability on any of my totems, and once you get to the smallest sizes none of them will last forever if you whip on them a lot.

patto wrote: HUH! WHAT!? Since when? This doesn't make sense at all.

Ever since the cam came out? It's in the trigger design. Weird things can happen in shallow horizontals (shallow enough for the trigger to hang over the edge of the crack). For someone who theorizes about cam angle & slick rock, I thought you'd understand this.

patto wrote: HUH! WHAT!? Since when? This doesn't make sense at all. FYI, I whipped on a 00 Master Cam and in a horizontal and it was totally bomber! Totem basics are at the opposite end of the grip spectrum to MasterCams. They are totally different cams, don't climb with these on slick rock! Totem Cams as in the original Totem cams have the best of both works. Good grip and good flared performance.

One of my partners became concerned about Mastercams in horizontal cracks and contacted Metolius, he was told by them that mastercams were not designed for horizontal cracks.

The issue is that that little diamond shaped piece that connects the trigger to cams can roll when loaded over an edge and when it does it pulls on the cams and can cause them to disengage. It's pretty easy to simulate in your house if you're interested.

Free country, of course, do what you like. But if you poll a bunch of Gunks climbers you may find that mastercams are not what people reach for around here.

Also, I'd say any small cam can pull in slick rock. I try hard to find at least some slight constriction or crystal for every placement, for just that reason. Small cams can surprise you, and not in a good way.

From the latest Metolius Cam Manual:

"Because they have flexible bodies, Metolius cams can be placed in horizontal cracks. However, whenever a cam body or sling is loaded over an edge it will sacrifice some strength, just like any other piece of gear. Inspect your cams carefully after using them in a horizontal placement. When placing cams in horizontals, always place the outboard cam lobes on the bottom."

that guy named seb wrote:but for really small cams i think i will get some X4's the totem basics look sweet but i'm a tad bit concerned for the durability (fabric and soft metal) where the BD cam has harder metal and a armored cable.

You want softer metal on smaller cams especially in hard rock like granite. And it's not aid specific.

Heard lots of issues/complaints with the X4s. One person I know had the axles bend after one fall and another had multiple bent axles after body weight only aid placements.
I like Metolius for small stuff (I know it's no option for you) but have not used Totems...

Seth Kane wrote: Hard to explain but they feel better when they're placed. And with the new black they'll cover anything down to tips.

I totally agree on the totems, I have just been using one green on my rack and I call that thing my jesus piece. It always to fit in some funky spot that I can't use a C4 and I never worry about it walking.

Adding to the list of positive attributes the two lobe body weight placement can be great free climbing also. There was a slightly cruxy finger crack and my partner had cleaned the the totem, was able to french free it on two lobes in slight pods in the granite. Try pulling that off with a .75 C4 :)

Totem Basics and X4s are both good cams and will serve you well. Fixe Aliens are inferior in several ways to the Basics; buy Totems if you decide to get alien-like cams. Mastercams, as noted above, have various issues. They were a good choice 10 years ago when Aliens were impossible to find, but there are better options now.

IMO, the ideal rack (if doubling up) is one set of Basics and one set of X4s. The sizing staggers really nicely, giving you lots of size options. For instance, there is a small size gap in between the 0.2 and 0.3 X4s; the green Basic fills this gap perfectly. Sizing goes 0.2 X4, green Basic, 0.3 X4, yellow basic , 0.4 X4, red basic, 0.5 (I use a C4 for this size). Then C4s (or dragons...basically the same) from 0.75 on up. This is my standard rack when carrying a double set of small cams; I carried it on a long route just yesterday. It is a really good combination.

For the really small sizes (below 0.2 X4 or green alien), C3s are nice because of the narrow head, which allows for better options to fit into little poddy seams. I find they work better in the smallest sizes than 4 cam units. A green and purple C3 would be a good complement to the rack described above.

That is a lot of cams, though, and you probably wouldn't want to buy all of those at one. Assuming you will buy only one set to start, get Basics or X4s. Either is good. If you can get a good deal on one of those brands, go with that one. If prices are similar, go with the Basics, since overall they are better and do not have the kinking/durability issues of the X4s.

Despite appearances, Basics are actually more durable than the X4s. The Basics are very well made and will last a long time.

mike gibson wrote:From the latest Metolius Cam Manual: "Because they have flexible bodies, Metolius cams can be placed in horizontal cracks. However, whenever a cam body or sling is loaded over an edge it will sacrifice some strength, just like any other piece of gear. Inspect your cams carefully after using them in a horizontal placement. When placing cams in horizontals, always place the outboard cam lobes on the bottom."

Still, you might want to try the simulation. If I remember right the trick is to insert the cam pretty deep into the horizontal, to the point where the little crossbar that anchors the trigger cords is inside the crack. Then pull down on the sling. Because that little bar is pointed, it rolls sideways, creating tension on the cords as though the trigger were being pulled.

Ask folks who climb in yr area ...

What works in solid squamish granite might not be the best on irregular brit limestone

Thats all there is to it

;)

Lots of good stuff in this thread, but I what I want to know is how you feel about that DMM #1.5 3CU that's been your only cam for however long? :)

Wild Country is good!

Horizontal cracks are a must in my local climbing area(not that any one builds a rack for this area) so metolius are definitely out, i'm still on the fence about X4's I struggle to believe the horror stories i have heard about the X4's especially since there are so many drastically different opinions on it, i'm leaning more on the side of totems now, they are slightly cheaper (£3) but I'm still concerend about the durability, when it's nylon vs steel cable sheath I would all ways go with the steel, that with the soft metal it just seems bad for durability. I think I will give the totem basics a shot and if i do find the durability lacking i will get some X4's, that being said i will probably end up with both.

Noah Yetter wrote:Lots of good stuff in this thread, but I what I want to know is how you feel about that DMM #1.5 3CU that's been your only cam for however long? :)

It's a bit shit TBH I used it in a horizontal crack and it forced the trigger bar to open the cam in hind sight i should have pushed the trigger bar back in hind sight, the steel cable is also permanently bent from that one time (only body weight was applied) it functions fine and have used it plenty, yet to fall on it but feels pretty solid when yanked on, the extendable sling is sweet and lets me minimize my run out on longer sea cliffs (i only carry 8 draws).

that guy named seb wrote:i'm leaning more on the side of totems now, they are slightly cheaper (£3) but I'm still concerend about the durability, when it's nylon vs steel cable sheath I would all ways go with the steel, that with the soft metal it just seems bad for durability. I think I will give the totem basics a shot and if i do find the durability lacking i will get some X4's, that being said i will probably end up with both.

Totem Basics are more durable and reliable than X4s. X4s get kinking issues, whereas Basics do not. Your concern about the nylon sheath is entirely misplaced. The sheath on Aliens/Basics holds up quite well, and is rarely/never the first thing on the cam to wear out. The "armored" sheath of the X4s really isn't necessary. Many of my climbing partners have 10-15 year old Aliens, heavily used that whole time, on their racks. The sheaths are fine.

Get the Totem Basics.

Dylan B. wrote: I don't understand this. Why would you rule out Mastercams for horizontal cracks?

If the trigger bar gets loaded over an edge, which is common and sometimes unavoidable for horizontals, it sometimes tensions the trigger cable retracting the lobes.

I've placed mastercams in horizontals and never seen it happen but it apparently happens enough for metolius to make a warning about it. It's not that they can't be used in horizontals, you just need to be a lot more aware and attentive to where/how the cam is loaded over the edge. This makes them just another potential hazard and therefore less ideal for areas relying heavily or horizontals for protection.

eli poss wrote: If the trigger bar gets loaded over an edge, which is common and sometimes unavoidable for horizontals, it sometimes tensions the trigger cable retracting the lobes. I've placed mastercams in horizontals and never seen it happen but it apparently happens enough for metolius to make a warning about it. It's not that they can't be used in horizontals, you just need to be a lot more aware and attentive to where/how the cam is loaded over the edge. This makes them just another potential hazard and therefore less ideal for areas relying heavily or horizontals for protection.

I'd say that's a very fair way to put it. It definitely doesn't happen in every horizontal placement. But given that my home crag demands that I place cams horizontally probably over half the time, it didn't seem like a good limitation for me to have. The mainstay for me is C3's but I definitely like having a couple of Totem Basics on my rack, as it's nice to have the added surface area of that 4th lobe in a straightforward placement. I think the trigger action and stem flexibility are nicer on the Basics too.

Seb, Aliens pair well with X4s for doubles, so you can't go wrong. ;) Maybe alternate as you build your rack and see what you like better. If Totems are cheaper for you (definitely not for me), then it's an easy decision.

Dylan B. wrote:What is the design difference between Mastercams vs. Basics, X4s or CCH Aliens that causes the MC to have this problem, but the others to avoid it?

The crossbar supporting the trigger cords on Mastercams is diamond shaped rather than (roughly) rectangular as it is on the Alien/basic. The point of the diamond contacts the face of the horizontal and has to rock one way or the other, where as most of the time it stays flat with the CCH design. The rocking can pull on the cords. Can't speak to X4, don't have any.

It should be noted that with the "right" (ie wrong!) configuration of rock in a particular placement, probably any cam design (except maybe C3? Not sure...) could be provoked to have this kind of problem via crystals and constrictions in the rock and twists in the stem.