Trad gear needed on bolted routes

those petzl LL are a bitch to replace. they are stainless and very good in hard rock.

Ah I see.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:those petzl LL are a bitch to replace. they are stainless and very good in hard rock.

Well thankfully there is that bomber crack right next to it so it can be backed up someday when that hardware finally reaches that point. Thats assuming that crack would not need replacing as well.

Because they're cheap and lazy and are using ethics[style] to mask it.

I think its legit if its put up on lead, on a multi-pitch that requires a rack for the remaining pitches.

a route I am working on the first pitch has nine bolts and and two or three cams, the pitches after that are still a mystery but are mostly cracks... seems like a legit tactic.

I would prefer to place my own gear wherever possible. I am very pro mixed routes.

there are lots of routes here in zion where bolts link supplemental gear. I like it, keeps it exciting without breaking my feet.

Ryan Palo wrote:Because they're cheap and lazy and are using ethics[style] to mask it.

Funny, because the same argument could be said for using bolts in a section that can be protected with trad gear...

Cheap - Don't want to waste money buying a rack, rack of draws more affordable.

Lazy - Some people don't feel like climbing with an extra piece of gear or two.

Ethics to mask it - well, ethics are personalized and the fact that you choose to bolt a section that can be protected traditionally speaks to your ethics of bolting routes.

Tim Lutz wrote:always entertaining to watch the 5.7 leader try to school the .14 climber

...or maybe some climbers don't care about flexing their muscles on their MP profile...

No one is schooling anyone, I am simply saying the same points could be made from both sides of the argument.

especially funny to see a route developer have to defend placing fewer bolts to someone who has never placed a bolt, or even bought a fucking quick-link. (I obviously don't know for sure, but past experience...) i am surprised nobody chimed in with how if your not placing a stainless bolt right by the crack you are a murderer.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:especially funny to see a route developer have to defend placing fewer bolts to someone who has never placed a bolt, or even bought a fucking quick-link. (I obviously don't know for sure, but past experience...) i am surprised nobody chimed in with how if your not placing a stainless bolt right by the crack you are a murderer.

+1

Tim Lutz wrote:always entertaining to watch the 5.7 leader try to school the .14 climber

Well lets face it anyone can climb sport as is proven by the posters on here ...even 8 year old boys and girls can out climb these guys ..less risk than soccer. Working a route just means its above your grade ... Carrying a full rack on multi pitch routes requires more than muscle ... a little bit of thought,technique and intelligence ... Run-out slabs of 5.7 and up wards usually sort out the muscle bound hero's ...

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote: i am surprised nobody chimed in with how if your not placing a stainless bolt right by the crack you are a murderer.

Every time a developer chooses gear over a shiny new SS bolt God kills puppies I hear.

USBRIT wrote: Run-out slabs of 5.7 and up wards usually sort out the muscle bound hero's ...

When I was living in SLC I remember a sporto friend of mine who stopped by the reef to check out and climb some of those "bolted" slabs, he said he couldnt find any of the bolts and left.

"Every time a developer chooses gear over a shiny new SS bolt God kills puppies I hear. "

...I hate puppies...so much, but not as much as god does.

T Roper wrote: When I was living in SLC I remember a sporto friend of mine who stopped by the reef to check out and climb some of those "bolted" slabs, he said he couldnt find any of the bolts and left.

That made me laugh ... Good one...There are well over 200 routes not only on the slabs but also on the steep side canyon walls ...He either need glasses or could not believe he might have to climb 20' to 90' to reach the first bolt ... All are described in detail
on this site. Still pretty funny..

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:those petzl LL are a bitch to replace. they are stainless and very good in hard rock.

Fortunately replacement shouldent be much of a concern anytime soon outside marine areas as those bolts are cast from 316/ A4 stainless steel. I always assumed that's why Petzl called them the "long life."

USBRIT wrote: That made me laugh ... Good one...There are well over 200 routes not only on the slabs but also on the steep side canyon walls ...He either need glasses or could not believe he might have to climb 20' to 90' to reach the first bolt ... All are described in detail on this site. Still pretty funny..

HAHA! 200 routes and about 27 bolts total between them all ;) I have sampled some of your reef and other desert routes sir, and I believe you owe me a several new pairs of pants. If I ever need my ego checked I just go back to the swell and remind myself that I suck and am a sissy man baby.

Solid work out there. Its an awesome place.

James Hicks wrote: HAHA! 200 routes and about 27 bolts total between them all ;) I have sampled some of your reef and other desert routes sir, and I believe you owe me a several new pairs of pants. If I ever need my ego checked I just go back to the swell and remind myself that I suck and am a sissy man baby. Solid work out there. Its an awesome place.

Thanks James .. Its good to hear that their are still some climbers out there that appreciate the adventure part of the sport. I agree the Swell its a wonderful peaceful place and long may it remain ... I do miss those desert
evenings around the camp fire. Best wishes from a damp but pretty UK..

Tim Lutz wrote:always entertaining to watch the 5.7 leader try to school the .14 climber

Whats even more entertaining is a 5.7 leader succeeding in schooling the .14 climber! :-D

Here's an example of what happens when someone imposes the trad at all costs ethic in an area that is 65% sport routes and has fully embraced the idea that on a sport route one shouldn't need trad gear.

A recent posting on a Facebook public group for a particular area. I don't think the hanger just "fell off":

The last hanger is missing from [redacted] 5.11c on [redacted]. You can from the same clip hold stem out left on a good toe and clip a draw to [redacted] station and then finish up the route. Just saying so no one is shocked like we were today. As to why the hanger is not there it probably fell off or it was taken off because there is a #1 or 2 Cam 'right there'...

It is one thing to argue about how a route should be equipped when it is being established and quite another to sabotage an established route in an area with generally agreed-upon assumptions about what climbers will encounter.

That said, people who add bolts to trad climbs don't understand this any better than people who remove bolts from sport climbs.

rgold wrote:It is one thing to argue about how a route should be equipped when it is being established and quite another to sabotage an established route in an area with generally agreed-upon assumptions about what climbers will encounter. That said, people who add bolts to trad climbs don't understand this any better than people who remove bolts from sport climbs.

Exactly.