Quad Question

Ive got a trip coming up to a regional multi pitch location with bolted belays. Im considering giving the quad a shot as Ive read a bunch about it but my comfort was with a cordalette and creating a master point.

my standard operating procedures have included making a three point anchor, clove hitching into the master point and an 8 on bite into the shelf for back up. my second then cloves into the master point on arrival and depending if swapping or not, etc etc etc.

however with the quad I wanted to clove to two strands for my primary but wasn't sure what id use for my backup. am i 8 on bite above the limiter knot of the quad? the other two strands that my partner will eventually use? the bolt?

thanks.

No need for a back up, clove hitch into either two strands of the quad and call it good.

Zak hit it. I don't see the point of backing up. Clove hitch onto a locker either on the shelf of the cordelette or the two strands of the quad and move on. What exactly would a backup (I presume with the same climbing rope that you used to hitch the cord/quad) do?

Personally I like to backup my clove with a figure-8 on a bite, simply because I don't completely trust myself to properly tie a clove hitch EVERY time, and the figure-8 is so dead-simple to visually inspect. Clove hitching onto a carabiner with the rope is plenty strong enough, it's more that I feel more comfortable hanging on two knots instead of one.

Mike N. wrote:Personally I like to backup my clove with a figure-8 on a bite, simply because I don't completely trust myself to properly tie a clove hitch EVERY time, and the figure-8 is so dead-simple to visually inspect. Clove hitching onto a carabiner with the rope is plenty strong enough, it's more that I feel more comfortable hanging on two knots instead of one.

Like a figure eight tight in?

I honestly love the quad and use it all the time for setting up a bomber, semi-self-equalizing TR anchor.

That said, I really don't think it has a place in multipitch climbing. It's bulky, heavy, and honestly overkill.

If you know the bolts are going to be closely-spaced, bring two double length nylon or hybrid (nylon + dyneema) runners, one for the current belay and one for the next. Use the free one (i.e. the one not in use by your belayer) to tie a simple pre-equalized two-point anchor at each belay. If you want to save a little time, you can even leave them pre-tied (just be sure to untie them at the end of the day to prevent concentrated wear). Two double length slings is way less bulk and weight than two quads.

If the bolts might not be closely-spaced, you'll probably want two cordalettes. At that point, you could tie a quad when the bolts are close, but that takes a lot longer than a simple pre-equalized overhand on a bight. Again, quads are awesome, but overkill for this purpose.

Mike N. wrote:Personally I like to backup my clove with a figure-8 on a bite, simply because I don't completely trust myself to properly tie a clove hitch EVERY time, and the figure-8 is so dead-simple to visually inspect. Clove hitching onto a carabiner with the rope is plenty strong enough, it's more that I feel more comfortable hanging on two knots instead of one.

Try this method. Test your hitch before going off belay and you're all good.

vimeo.com/126266748

wfscot wrote:That said, I really don't think it has a place in multipitch climbing. It's bulky, heavy, and honestly overkill.

I personally really like the quad for multipitch when I know the belay stations will be bolted. It allows plenty of space for me, my belay device, and my second. I can even lean one way and have the belay device stay equalized the other way.

Adam Fleming wrote:I personally really like the quad for multipitch when I know the belay stations will be bolted. It allows plenty of space for me, my belay device, and my second. I can even lean one way and have the belay device stay equalized the other way.

I sort of get it, but I'm not so sure about the claimed benefits.

Space - on a standard pre-equalized overhand (or eight) on a bight, you have three separate places to clip: top shelf, bottom shelf, and master point. I'll admit that it's less space than the quad, but careful use of those keeps things nice and tidy.

Leaning out/self equalizing - under body weight, who cares? The key is that your anchor is redundant and reasonably equalized against *big* forces. If you are worried about bolt failure (at which point you probably shouldn't be anchored to just two pieces), I'd be far more concerned about extension in the quad vs. the lack of body-weight equalization while you shift around.

On the minus side, how do you carry it when you're climbing? It either takes up a healthy amount of space on your harness/over-the-shoulder or you have to spend extra minutes setting up and tearing down the anchor.

I'll take my double-length sling and a quick overhand on a bight. As mentioned above, I'll often leave it pre-tied to make things super quick with minimal bulk.

thanks for your input. Ive felt the same on several of the points. BUT....

I don't KNOW if the bolts are (standard) close, or if they are trustworthy as Ive never climbed there. Next, Ive only done single pitch with the partner Ill be climbing with and obviously don't have our multi- rhythm down. So my decision for the quad was based on me taking a 30' cord on my rack and be ready to build SOMETHING. I don't mind making/racking a pre-equalized cord or quad. neither take up too much room in my opinion and Id rather each of us have ample in case we need to bail.

As far as clipping in a back up, I'm happy to hear its not needed, but I will anyway. why? because Im still a new leader and tend to over do safety procedures. I intellectually know the clove won't slip, but emotionally aren't so sure a few pitches up. But hey, thats my shit and why I'm practicing.

thanks again!

the quad works best for horizontally spaced anchors, for those with a diagonal staggering youll often need to retie it

with a tied (fig8/9) anchor theres actually four clip in points ... the front and back shelfs, the master point and a biner through the last bend (make sure you keep a biner through the masterpoint)

also using a fig 9 makes the tied anchor MUCH easier to untie for skinny dyneema slings

if you need to shorten it a bit simply do more twirls around .... ir fig 9, 10, 11, 12, etc ...

;)

bearbreeder wrote:the quad works best for horizontally spaced anchors, for those with a diagonal staggering youll often need to retie it with a tied (fig8/9) anchor theres actually four clip in points ... the front and back shelfs, the master point and a biner through the last bend (make sure you keep a biner through the master point)....

through the last bend? like clipping a biner through the actual knot?

JRZane wrote: through the last bend? like clipping a biner through the actual knot?

page 20

rescuedynamics.ca/articles/…

as always learn from a professional or someone experienced ... not off intrawebz forums

durty ole experienced climbers usually luuuv teaching yung folks all em naughty tricks ... especially if theres beer and free food involved

;)

Another advantage to the quad is you still have a cordelette in case you miss the belay or when you get to the belay one of the bolts is missing and you need to incorporate gear in the anchor.

Make a quad out of two double length dynemma slings. Advantages of a quad without the bulk of a cord. Took two of these up and down Levitation 29 yesterday and they were very handy. Clip into two of the loops and belay off of the other two. Works handy for the rappel too.

Chris Massey wrote:Make a quad out of two double length dynemma slings. Advantages of a quad without the bulk of a cord. Took two of these up and down Levitation 29 yesterday and they were very handy. Clip into two of the loops and belay off of the other two. Works handy for the rappel too.

FWIW, you could also use a single 240cm dyneema sling such as this:

rei.com/product/830935/mamm…

I have two of these pre-tied in to quads for multipitch with bolted belays.They are much more compact than carrying a 6-7mm cordelette.

Alex May wrote: FWIW, you could also use a single 240cm dyneema sling such as this: rei.com/product/830935/mamm… I have two of these pre-tied in to quads for multipitch with bolted belays.They are much more compact than carrying a 6-7mm cordelette.

Oooo. I like the double double lengths. Although it seems a pinch short, it's certainly lighter and stronger. But ill still need cord for an emergency bail rap. But I can take a lot less and my 120cm slings are comin anyway.

Honestly I'm thinking day one the whole circus is going up and I'll find out what works for us as we go. As I mentioned before, as a new leader I find myself over-racking and it seems I'll be a bit heavy again.

I'm a big proponent of the quad in the multi-pitch setting. Sure, it takes a second longer to build/breakdown than some of the alternatives, but the near-perfect equalization and the ability to have you and your partner comfortably lean in two different directions on a small ledge are big perks. It also addresses the issue of the rope rubbing on the cordellete/sling that can easily happen if the setup is not done carefully when placing the belay device on the shelf of a pre-equalized anchor.

There are, of course, many ways to skin the cat, but to me, the only semi-valid argument against the use of the quad at bolted stations is that it takes a little longer to construct.

I'd recommend trimming your 30' cord down a bit to save some weight and confusion. Having a cord that long will be easy to get lost in when you reach a ledge and open the coil up. If you setup a quad at your typical bolted anchor, it will also force your masterpoint to be lower than you really want. Most people are happy with a cord in the 16-20' range.

If you haven't seen this yet, this is a nice article related to this topic: rockandice.com/climbing-new…

bearbreeder wrote:the quad works best for horizontally spaced anchors, for those with a diagonal staggering youll often need to retie it

No, when the anchors are not horizontal, just adjust the length of the lower leg by using a clove hitch.

Long presented the quad as a good option for two bolt belays, and indeed you see most people use quad for TRing on sport routes. But the quad is actually far more useful for multi-pitch than most people realize. If you're untying and retying the quad at every belay, then you're defeating one of the biggest advantage of the quad. Leave the quad pre-tied with fairly long legs. Between the option of clipping one or two loops to each piece and clove hitching, you can easily and quickly build an anchor utilizing two to four different points.

aikibujin wrote: No, when the anchors are not horizontal, just adjust the length of the lower leg by using a clove hitch. Long presented the quad as a good option for two bolt belays, and indeed you see most people use quad for TRing on sport routes. But the quad is actually far more useful for multi-pitch than most people realize. If you're untying and retying the quad at every belay, then you're defeating one of the biggest advantage of the quad. Leave the quad pre-tied with fairly long legs. Between the option of clipping one or two loops to each piece and clove hitching, you can easily and quickly build an anchor utilizing two to four different points.

Of course all the same points could be made about the climbing rope. Though like always a climbing rope gives even more options.

Adam Fleming wrote: Try this method. Test your hitch before going off belay and you're all good. vimeo.com/126266748 I personally really like the quad for multipitch when I know the belay stations will be bolted. It allows plenty of space for me, my belay device, and my second. I can even lean one way and have the belay device stay equalized the other way.

This seems completely stupid and pointless? Why not go in direct and than tie a clove after you have zero risk of falling... vs trying to hold on to an anchor with 1 hand and tying a glove with another.

I guess there is a small chance you dropped all your gear while leading and have nothing left, but in that case it is a last chance option after you totally screw up everything during the climb.

patto wrote:Though like always a climbing rope gives even more options.

Not when you're doing all the leading, or climbing in a party of three. Yes, I know how to build an anchor with the climbing rope too. Doesn't mean that I can't like another method.