What presidential candidate would be most beneficial to the climbing community and land access?

More on the last can scenario.
Libertarians constantly refer the Zombie Apocalypse as an actual thing that needs to be prepared for.
What it means is that we see the very real possibility that through the collapse of the U.S. dollar commerce ceases. Trucks and trains stop rolling. People stop working.
Food disappears off of grocery shelves within days. 2 weeks into this and those people who surround you every day at work and on the highway are out of food. They will start to behave like animals. That is the Zombie Apocalypse we talk about.
Now if I have the last can, and you desperately need it, I would most likely arrange a transaction of some sort that would be voluntary and acceptable to both us, as that is exactly what the Free Market is. Having a guy point a gun at you and tell you to open the can so that he could take half of it, which he would then promptly ruin most of anyway by mishandling it, and then you have the state.

Phil Lauffen wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE

He's switching from the Democratic Party to the Libertarian Party, btw.

Mathias wrote: Consider the following hypothetical: If I choose to cut down a tree, I have imposed this choice upon everyone. Because I chose to cut down this tree, you can no longer choose whether or not to cut this tree down. I have cut the tree down and made this choice for you. I have decided that you cannot have this tree. The same is true for basically anything you do. The way I see it, any choice you make has a consequence for someone else. I don't see how you believe that you can live your life without imposing your will onto others in some way. Who's tree is it? If it's not your tree, you probably shouldn't be cutting it down. If you own the tree, you cannot be violating anyone else's rights to the tree because it's not their tree. You're correct that no one can go through life without effecting the lives of others. But a person can do their best to not violate other people's rights. Such as deciding what they do with their own bodies or the product of their labor, etc.

Good summation of the Tragedy of the Commons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trage…

Think of all of the amazing things invented in the free market capitalist system the Progressives hate. Then think of any product invented say... in Venezuela ... or China ... or Cuba ... or North Korea. Hmmmm ... was the car invented in those places? Or the computer? Or our vacccines? Or the internet? Hell no. The world's tech advances took place for one simple reason ... the free market in the U.S. But of course ... like the spoiled children of rich parents who have no respect for the hard work required of their parents to be rich ... and to provide those riches and privileges to these kids ... progressives ... with their iPhones and western inventions ... denigrate the system that gave them the quality of life they get to have. They romanticize socialist countries without ever having lived in one. Have you noticed that progressives ... as they sing the praises of socialism ... never move to socialist countries? Instead ... millions of people from socialist countries risk life and limb to escape their misery for the US. People vote with their feet.

Tony,

The capitalist controlled government did those things. In fact, I think it's a stretch to say we even have a government. I see the whole world being ruled by capitalists and their militaries.

My point, however, was that private businesses are equally prone to inefficiencies. The government doesn't actually do all of their own work. The private businesses they hire are to blame too.

But who really did those things? We did. That is why all this theorizing is somewhat pointless. The "State" is just made up of average citizens like you and I. Turns out average citizens like you and I are to blame for our current situation.

If you are required out of necessity to rent your life to private business for wage then you are a slave to a capitalist. Libertarians seem to be saying they would rather be slaves to capitalists rather than the state.

Capitalism is fundamentally flawed in it's view of private ownership. No one owns that tree.

The computer was invented as a concept as an ivory tower thought experiment, and as a machine to build the atom bomb and break codes. The only reason that the computer as a civilian device exists is because government entities didn't own the means of large-scale production.

The defense sequester was disastrous for basic science, because operating a large scale money-sink like bell labs is simply not possible without government subsidies for non-commercial applications. Profit-motivated shareholders always ask "what's the application?" And will always outnumber those who ask "where will this put us as a species?"

The "Capitalism" poster was meant as a sarcastic response to the "Socialism" poster posted a page earlier. The point was that all you have to do is swap the two words and you have equally moronic statements that would likely legitimately appeal to their respective sympathizers. It's Orewllian. Here they are again, for your erudition:

Todd Graham wrote:Think of all of the amazing things invented in the free market capitalist system the Progressives hate. Then think of any product invented say... in Venezuela ... or China ... or Cuba ... or North Korea. Hmmmm ... was the car invented in those places? Or the computer? Or our vacccines? Or the internet? Hell no. The world's tech advances took place for one simple reason ... the free market in the U.S.

You use the INTERNET as an example of something invented by the free market? Seriously?

RandyR wrote: You use the INTERNET as an example of something invented by the free market? Seriously?

haha, I know. The Internet was the product of DoD. So are many of our nice synthetic materials we use in ropes and other climbing gear.

Todd Graham wrote:Think of all of the amazing things invented in the free market capitalist system the Progressives hate. Then think of any product invented say... in Venezuela ... or China ... or Cuba ... or North Korea. Hmmmm ... was the car invented in those places? Or the computer? Or our vacccines? Or the internet? Hell no. The world's tech advances took place for one simple reason ... the free market in the U.S. But of course ... like the spoiled children of rich parents who have no respect for the hard work required of their parents to be rich ... and to provide those riches and privileges to these kids ... progressives ... with their iPhones and western inventions ... denigrate the system that gave them the quality of life they get to have. They romanticize socialist countries without ever having lived in one. Have you noticed that progressives ... as they sing the praises of socialism ... never move to socialist countries? Instead ... millions of people from socialist countries risk life and limb to escape their misery for the US. People vote with their feet.

LOLZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!! Your bigotry is impressive.

.......I think you need to re-evaluate where in the world 'socialist' countries are. It not just Venezuela and Cuba. Its denmark, France, UK and Germany also. You should also re-evaluate where that great list of inventions came from.

Car- Germany
Internet - Europeans at CERN (though some might argue it was the US government....either way your argument fails)
Computer - England
Our vaccines - hmmmm......which ones?

So yeah, all of those great advances you talk about came outside of the US free market and in largely socialist countries. Great try though.

Henry Ford invented the minimum wage too.

jason.cre wrote: LOLZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!! Your bigotry is impressive. .......I think you need to re-evaluate where in the world 'socialist' countries are. It not just Venezuela and Cuba. Its denmark, France, UK and Germany also. You should also re-evaluate where that great list of inventions came from. Car- Germany Internet - Europeans at CERN (though some might argue it was the US government....either way your argument fails) Computer - England Our vaccines - hmmmm......which ones? So yeah, all of those great advances you talk about came outside of the US free market and in largely socialist countries. Great try though.

Neither England nor Germany would have been considered anything close to socialist at the time of those innovations. Both were heavily vested in ruling over capitalistic empires at the time. Nice try, though.

http://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/

Mike Lane wrote: Neither England nor Germany would have been considered anything close to socialist at the time of those innovations. Both were heavily vested in ruling over capitalistic empires at the time. Nice try, though.

My apologies, I was a little overexcited with the irony someone extolling the virtues and innovation of 'Muricas free market by pointing to a bunch of European inventions. Too good.

And thats besides the point that the most innovative countries year after year according to numerous surveys are socialist countries.

Mike Lane wrote:http://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/

She also forgot to mention denmark:
Has the highest level of personal freedom in the world
Lowest level of corruption
Among the best business climates
Amongst the highest ranking sin terms of standard of living, quality of life, and human development (much higher than the US in all aspects)

Mike, I wonder if you have experienced the horrors of Denmark first hand?

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/6/best-countries-11_Denmark_CHI001.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_…

The countries you keep holding up as examples of successful socialism aren't even that. They are social democracies, or in other words highly taxed welfare states. Socialism itself is when the state assumes control over the means of production. Sweden, Denmark- social democracies. Venezuela, Cuba- socialist. You should at least get the terminology of what you are advocating for correct.

You understand that Denmark is so attractive to corporations because it taxes them very low, right?
And being highly taxed personally is the polar opposite of personal freedom.

My wife is a Czech. I know Europe very well.
Speaking of Europe, there is an experiment in a libertarian society underway right now. Liberland
However, being as dedicated of Statephile as you seem to be, I can't imagine what it's like to wish failure and eventual return to enslavement upon these people.

Another example of Europeans trying to Live Free
studentsforlibertycz.cz/mul…

Are we not all Stewart's of the wall? F*** the political correctness.. The Constitution of the United States was written to be free from government with a common sense to be a free society!! The more we lack common sense, the more the liberals want the government to take charge!...* take care of us, take care of us!!!) The PEOPLE Rule the government... not the other way around... Common ground MUST be reached, otherwise, all will be lost...