March-May Saturday Gunks partner / nearly gearless beggar

I don't have much to offer except I will belay and pay for gas. If someone has the rack, rope, etc. and is looking for someone to join them in the next couple months on a temperate Saturday, let me know.

The only gear I have out here is my rock shoes (if you have an extra harness, great, but if not, I'll get one or tie myself a swiss seat), but I'd love to get out to the Gunks before I leave. I lead 5.8 trad and 10 (probably low 10's as I'm out of shape) sport and can follow 10+. Been climbing in the west (CA, & UT) for 8 years.

Reply on MP or text/call me at 801.623.7652

You should consider getting a helmet, there's a lot of loose rock at the Gunks. Neither helmet or harness are expensive, unless you're concerned with style. There's a used gear store in New Paltz, might be able to get the harness on the cheap there (wouldn't trust a helmet I didn't know the prior owner/full story).

Thanks for the loose rock warning Kevin. I have 3 or 4 harnesses and a couple helmets just not with me here in NYC. (A lot of good they will do me). Looks like I may be growing my collection. :)

If you know how to tie it, go with the swiss seat. Best $7 harness ever. And it's great for scaring the newbies!

Gunkiemike wrote:If you know how to tie it, go with the swiss seat. Best $7 harness ever. And it's great for scaring the newbies!

I'm too spoiled having gear loops. :(

Yeah, I've got no problems with a swiss seat. As long as I'm not hanging in it all day. :)

Rock and snow annex does not sell used harnesses
I would think (and so must they) that a used harness is way sketchier than a used helmet

TLyons wrote:Rock and snow annex does not sell used harnesses I would think (and so must they) that a used harness is way sketcher than a used helmet

I think of it as the opposite, I can visually inspect a harness for wear and stitching issues. You can't always see fractures/small cracks in the foam of the helmet, which is its primary point of failure if impacted.

All climbing gear is a tough resale. Issues don't need to be visible to lead to premature failure. That's why I only buy used gear from climbing friends. I figure both of our lives depend on them selling me something that isn't damaged/degraded.

You probably won't have any trouble finding someone to climb with, but if you don't have a partner set come the days you want to go, just come up anyway.

People are often TR'ing in the Uberfall and especially later in the day happy to give someone a ride.

buying a used harness from someone you don't know sounds pretty dumb, kind of like buying a used rope

I mean you can check the harnesses stitches but you'll never know if it has been exposed to harsh chemicals

Andrew Pow wrote:... but you'll never know if it has been exposed to harsh chemicals

What sort of chemicals would someone expose their harness to?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: What sort of chemicals would someone expose their harness to?

Black Diamond did a chemical analysis on harnesses a few years ago ( blackdiamondequipment.com/e… ) and determined that battery acid from a car battery is about as deadly as it gets as far as melting nylon. Sure it's unlikely, but if you happen to purchase a new car battery, stick it in your trunk to take it home, now a few weeks later toss your climbing gear in the back? Could be a recipe for disaster.

I remember purchasing a new battery for my motorcycle a couple years ago and the newb of a mechanic filling it with battery acid did a crap job and spilled it all over the exterior of the battery. I doused the whole back of my car with baking soda to make sure I'd never have a problem.

It's a long shot, but ya never know!

Kevin Heckeler wrote: What sort of chemicals would someone expose their harness to?

Accidental exposure.

Camp stove fuel spill
Cat or dog piss
Cleaning chemicals
Solvents from a garage/ basement/ back of a truck
Prolonged UV exposure

I thought I was paranoid! haha [and I am, see my prior comments about only buying used gear from friends]

It's unlikely any or all of those things will ever impact a harness to the point of failure.

In which case, slings and cams, and anything else nylon should be similarly lumped in.

The concern seems excessive. Argumentative to a point even.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:It's a long shot, but ya never know!

I bet my chances of getting crushed by rock fall are much greater.
____________

To the original point, the odds of someone's helmet taking a 20-200 foot trip down a scree field or smacking it hard into the back of a corner/chimney, etc are much greater than any of the above toxicity dangers to nylon climbing gear. Not that any of the aforementioned issues aren't worthy of noting (if they're even actually issues *), but how much weight should be given is completely up to scientific scrutiny (and a tremendously healthy dose of very bad luck that one or more of those risks would happen to have occurred to a random harness for sale at a co-op).

Just sayin'.

Because of the forces involved, hairline fractures in cam lobes from being dropped would IMO be a much greater risk in used gear than dog pee on a harness (not to mention it's nasty and likely noticeable/stinky even after good cleaning, same goes for excessive cleaning chemicals and camp stove fuel).

There's certainly a lot to consider when buying ANY used climbing gear, to the point as I said you're almost better off just not doing it or just buying from trusted sources if you have any uneasiness about it.

• Aside from the car battery issue (which I've read about prior, and which again would be a very rare occurrence but because of its degree of failure certainty worthy of noting), I have not seen any studies indicating any of the other items mentioned are actually bad in passing contact with nylon. Even deet isn't bad , the nylon has to get literally SOAKED in it for a very long time and even then nylon still retains most of its strength. General rules of thumb for climbing rope can be applied to other nylon climbing gear, although this page doesn't list specific products or say to what extent the product could impact the rope's usability: mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/L…

First, Alma, I'm really sorry for hijacking your thread here. If you find yourself up in the ADK in the near future, I have plenty of extra harnesses, nut tools, helmets, etc. that I assure you has not taken part in any chemical spills or been peed on by any pets or tossed down scree fields or thrown off cliffs. I tend to have mid-week days off but I can get out most days after noon. Hope you're able to get out and enjoy the early spring!

Kevin Heckeler wrote:I thought I was paranoid! haha [and I am, see my prior comments about only buying used gear from friends] It's unlikely any or all of those things will ever impact a harness to the point of failure.

If you had read Black Diamond's report, you would have seen that there were two instances where a harness and rope were indeed impacted to a point where the would have failed had they been used.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: I bet my chances of getting crushed by rock fall are much greater.

If you were to inadvertently get acid on your harness, I would absolutely like to place a wager on which would kill you first.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: To the original point, the odds of someone's helmet taking a 20-200 foot trip down a scree field or smacking it hard into the back of a corner/chimney, etc are much greater than any of the above toxicity dangers to nylon climbing gear.

This is of course true but the number of times my helmet has saved my life versus the number of times my harness has saved my life is so greatly disproportionate that I can't even begin make a guesstimate. However, if I were to try, I would say at least 1:1000.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Because of the forces involved, hairline fractures in cam lobes from being dropped would IMO be a much greater risk in used gear than dog pee on a harness

Micro fractures aren't real. If the gear looks good and still works, it'll still work. No one has ever reported a piece of gear to fail from micro- or hairline fractures. Directly from BD's test lab on carabiners: "It's best to inspect dropped gear for dings and significant trauma. If only light scratching is visible and gate action is still good, there is a good chance it is fit for usage." Of course, this depends on your definition of "good chance" and "fit for usage" but if you retire a piece of gear every time you drop it, please recycle it by sending it to my address.

And you're calling ME argumentative?! Hello kettle, this is the pot calling!

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:Hello kettle, this is the pot calling!

I was actually calling the other reply argumentative, but yeah I guess it applies anyway. ;-)

No, I don't throw out gear if I drop it. But I also don't resell it. My continued use is at MY risk/peril. [I was referring to cams, which weigh more and have denser metal/more likely to conceal the impacts with rock from a decent fall - I don't see much online about cam fall fractures. Biners are relatively light, I wouldn't expect their impact to be great enough to warrant anything more than a cursory inspection]

Agree that harness > helmet as critical gear. Disagree on the possible sources of degradation being of grave concern. It still comes down to the odds of those things coming into contact and thus impacting the item's function to the degree they would need to. I do know helmets are constantly being tossed and battered about, hence my apprehension with buying a used one. How often do people rub battery acid on their harness? Leave dog pee on it? Have their harness next to their cooking area at camp where they just happen to spill fuel on it? I mean, those examples are stretching 'reasonable'. [I realize you didn't make them, but seem content with defending them] If climbers are tossing their gear just anywhere (trunk of their car it would seem most obvious place for these things to come into contact with climbing gear), then perhaps this thread will help a few realize they can't just toss their gear anywhere. But I think common sense and a hopefully decent sense of order in someone's life would preclude such things from happening/coming in contact in the first place.

Alma's not new to MP, they know the deal. ;-)

And to the concluding point I made...

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Aside from the car battery issue (which I've read about prior, and which again would be a very rare occurrence but because of its degree of failure certainty worthy of noting)...General rules of thumb for climbing rope can be applied to other nylon climbing gear, although this page doesn't list specific products or say to what extent the product could impact the rope's usability: mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/L…

TLyons wrote: Accidental exposure. Camp stove fuel spill Cat or dog piss Cleaning chemicals Solvents from a garage/ basement/ back of a truck Prolonged UV exposure

Camp stove fuel spill
- no effect, but smells and attracts dirt

Cat or dog piss
- no significant effect, but smells forever

Cleaning chemicals Solvents from a garage/ basement/ back of a truck
- depending on the solvent or chemical, can reduce breaking strength by 95% within a few minutes of exposure

Prolonged UV exposure
- definite effect, but obviously not a chemical spill

Marc801 wrote:Cleaning chemicals Solvents from a garage/ basement/ back of a truck - depending on the solvent or chemical, can reduce breaking strength by 95% within a few minutes of exposure

The rope link above mentions vague 'chemical cleaners' but specifically mentions bleach. I'd imagine bleach and cleaners that contain it are the main cleaning culprits.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:It's unlikely any or all of those things will ever impact a harness to the point of failure.

These common chemicals are defined as having a "severe effect" on nylon and not necessarily have a visual indication:

isopropyl alcohol (aka rubbing alcohol)

propylene glycol (antifreeze - ever see someone sort their gear directly on a Yosemite parking lot?)

most hypochlorites (bleaches - found in pool chemicals in addition to cleaning compounds)

cresols / Creosote (preservatives used in railroad ties and telephone poles - like that fence around the trailhead that you just placed your rope on)

certain freons (used as refrigerants - found in automobile A/C recharge kits)

hydrogen peroxide above 10% concentration (even at 10% nylon only has a "fair" resistance)

Petrolatum (commonly known as petroleum jelly, aka Vaseline)

hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid, available at Home Depot for cleaning masonry and concrete among other things)

Recall we're talking about used harnesses with an unknown history from an unknown owner.

Marc - I seriously challenge the reported "severe effect" of petrolatum AKA Vaseline on Nylon. I know...Cole Parmer says so. But petrolatum is aliphatic hydrocarbon; it's not going to attack Nylon.

Also, per Cole Parmer, Propylene Glycol has no adverse effect. Freons are likely harmless as well, esp. since they vaporize instantly upon release from the A/C system.

Marc, what's your source for that laundry list? Do they mention tests and concentrations? Many of those things are so common we all mind as well give up the fantasy of climbing safely because nothing we're relying on for protection (nearly all of it is primarily made/utilizes nylon) is actually "safe". Oh no, I rubbed chapstick from my lips on the rope. Throw it out.

But I doubt it's actually like that, some of these things may be harmful in unrealistically (high) concentrations. But 2 month old traces of anti freeze on a yosemite parking lot? Um.

Bear in mind I'm regarded as a "safety freak" by my climbing friends, and I'm the one suggesting (most loudly) in this thread that this entire line of caution is overkill. It's important we as climbers know what is/is not good for our equipment, but when assessing the state of that equipment's function we need to be realistic about its history. Most gear in most closets is in good condition, relative to the list of potential boogeymen that would be destroying it. Without a degree in chemistry it's doubtful these lists are of any actual use to the average climber, not with the perspective that would be necessary to utilize it effectively. Everything causes cancer, don't you know?

Does that mean I want to buy your used gear? Nope, I buy new every X number of years as needed. It's worth my peace of mind knowing it's going to be working its best when I most need it. But for someone on a budget, it's a tougher call. Hopefully they make the best and safest choice for themselves.