New Alpinism

Kyle tarry, Doing 3 or 4 sessions of cardio a week of solely weighted hikes is very doable. I've done it. Not all were outside, so I had to go on a treadmill or stepmill. But the movement is essentially the same. This is for 8 weeks prior to climb. It's a pain in the ass: I had to wake up at 4am and hike for 3-4 hours before work. It's called serious training. How serious are you? 

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was not saying that doing that much training was impossible, I was arguing against the advice that 100% (all) of your training should be weighted hiking. Weighted hiking is the best training for weighted hiking, of course, but there is virtually zero downside to having some other type of cardio mixed in. If your buddy at work wants to go for a 30 minute run at lunch, do you say "no, I'm only allowed to hike"? That doesn't make sense. 

As to "how serious are you," maybe think twice in the future about accusations against people on the internet that you don't know.

beytzim wrote:Kyle tarry, Doing 3 or 4 sessions of cardio a week of solely weighted hikes is very doable. I've done it. Not all were outside, so I had to go on a treadmill or stepmill. But the movement is essentially the same. This is for 8 weeks prior to climb. It's a pain in the ass: I had to wake up at 4am and hike for 3-4 hours before work. It's called serious training. How serious are you?

I want to add, in my experience over the years, training multiple disciplines/types of exercise is very helpful. If you train one way (or only a few), you get very good at that one thing. However, the minute you attempt something outside that range, you can find your limits or injury much faster. By mixing running, trail running, hiking, swimming, backpacking, strength, etc. you get quite fit in a more well rounded way.

Further, I have found that lots of running in my program seems to help me at altitude, compared to my partners. I think the weighted climbs are important, just wouldn't want to limit myself to primarily that activity.

-David

What heart rate meters are you guys using that can record heart rate all day and save the results?

JamesC wrote:What heart rate meters are you guys using that can record heart rate all day and save the results?

I have been using a Garmin Forerunner 235. It has an integrated optical HR sensor that tracks my heart rate all day and night. However, since all of the integrated sensors are a bit slower to react to HR changes and don't work so well during strength training, I always use my HR chest strap during workouts.

Garmin also just announced a version of their high-end (and high-priced) Fenix 3 watch with the integrated HR sensor. The Fenix 3 HR is back-ordered at the moment, but should be available by end of the month or early April. It's a phenomenal watch, especially for those training with climbing/outdoor/multi-sport interests.

There are many other watches that have similar features. This youtube channel has tons of good info and reviews on all of the watch brands/options, and is fairly neutral. He has a very slight bias towards Garmin. After using a few different brands myself, I feel Garmin is the best for those training at a high level and want all the metrics in an easy to use package. Fit Bit has some great options as well.

Edit: Tom's comments on battery life seemed valuable to me, so I will add my FR235 gets about 5-6 days off a charge for all day use. However, if you add in some 2-3 hour GPS tracked runs, and some non-GPS tracked strength training, I get 2-3 days off a charge. I charge mine while I'm in the shower each morning. It is water proof, but works well as a good charge time since I want the watch on 24/7 to track All day HR, sleep patterns, etc.

Edit 2: Here is an example of the software side of things:

-David

JamesC wrote:What heart rate meters are you guys using that can record heart rate all day and save the results?

My wife has a Garmin 310XT, which has GPS (distance/speed/elevation gain, etc) and Heart rate with continuous logging (you can make a graph from the data). You charge the watch up, and it records for 20-24 hours at its best.
I have a discontinued Polar model (F6), which is a plain jane HRM (no GPS). It doesn't have data logging, but it saves the your average heart rate, and your maximum, for each workout. On a hill climb, I'd typically save the uphill part and the downhill part as separate workouts. I can also, very easily, set a low end heart rate, and it will keep track of time above that ("in the zone," lol), vs the total time. A lot of really cheap HRM's have that useful feature.
I have to use my wife's Garmin when I need an actual log/graph. I'd like to get my own, that has data logging and a long battery life. And I don't want or need the GPS function. I'd prefer Polar as well. So, I am interested in what the others will add to this topic!

I have been using a very simple Polar for years. I had been using a Polar for around 15 years so I decided to stick with them. Also, I used a super old now Suunto X6 or whatever for the last 15 years, great for everything not HR related.

After much consideration, I recently bought a Suunto Ambit3 Peak. It's pretty intense. The $650 price tag is even more intense (I paid half of that using an Amazon seller - I felt kind of sketchy, but it worked out).

It's a great toy, and a good tool. In that order. I get a lot of really good information. And using the online software I don't have to use spread-sheets anymore. It gives very good feedback. I can customize the data interface based on the activity I am doing. It connects to my phone with bluetooth. For me having longer battery life and a barometer was a requirement. Having GPS is nice.

I am glad that I have this new toy, and I get a lot of cool data, but really the only thing I need is (accurate) altitude and HR. Research all of your options before buying.

During my Base Training period I had to do some of the sessions at the fire station while on duty.

For the Zone 1/2 days I mixed it up with a treadmill and box steps.

I would start the tread mill at a steep angle with a brisk hiking pace to get warmed up keeping my heart in Z1 for about 10 minutes. Then I would transition to box steps (24") until I got into the upper limit of Z2. I would then hop back on the treadmill until I got my heart rate back down to the middle of Z1. I would alternate back and forth until the time was up.

This really breaks up the monotony of being inside. I hope this helps any of you that only have access to the gym and are bored with just running on the treadmill

Cheers, John

J.Colin.Olson wrote:I have been using a very simple Polar for years. I had been using a Polar for around 15 years so I decided to stick with them. Also, I used a super old now Suunto X6 or whatever for the last 15 years, great for everything not HR related. After much consideration, I recently bought a Suunto Ambit3 Peak. It's pretty intense. The $650 price tag is even more intense (I paid half of that using an Amazon seller - I felt kind of sketchy, but it worked out). It's a great toy, and a good tool. In that order. I get a lot of really good information. And using the online software I don't have to use spread-sheets anymore. It gives very good feedback. I can customize the data interface based on the activity I am doing. It connects to my phone with bluetooth. For me having longer battery life and a barometer was a requirement. Having GPS is nice. I am glad that I have this new toy, and I get a lot of cool data, but really the only thing I need is (accurate) altitude and HR. Research all of your options before buying.

How long does the battery last? Does is work with the iPhone and other Mac products well? I am looking at this model as well. Right now I have a simple Polaris HR monitor, a Garmin GPS watch and a Suunto Vector. I have to wear three things sometimes!!!!

The feature watches look a bit too spendy for me right now, though they look incredible. I stumbled on the Wahoo Tickr chest strap, which talks to an iPhone via bluetooth to save historical heart rate data. It's only $60. The companion app looks like this

JamesC wrote:The feature watches look a bit too spendy for me right now, though they look incredible. I stumbled on the Wahoo Tickr chest strap, which talks to an iPhone via bluetooth to save historical heart rate data. It's only $60. The companion app looks like this

Did you use their test run to establish your max HR?

Not my actual data, just an example screenshot pulled off of google. I'll probably hold on new gadgets until post-PCT.

Getting ready to start week 5 of Base. Ill be doing my first workout in Zone 3. Did you spend the entire time in Zone 3 or move through zones 1-2-3 during the workout?

Cramblda,

I agree with you on a multi-disciplined aerobic conditioning program. This reduces overuse injury and certainly makes it less boring. That being said, as a specific climbing objective approaches, more and more of your cardio needs to match that objective.

A run or bike instead of a weighted hill climb is indeed counterproductive as it replaces the ideal weighted climb. Again, this is for a regimented training program for the 8 weeks prior to a specific climbing objective. However, it's certainly better than nothing and it can help mitigate prior injury inflammation. Happy climbing!

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to say thank you for all the great information and discussion in this forum regarding the TFTNA Book and training program. I just started the transition phase and I am at the end of week 3. To refresh everyone's memory this is the week when you complete the strength training and core circuit twice through. My first two weeks i didn't really add much weight to the exercises mainly so i could get the forms down. This third week, which happened to coincide with a purchase of a weight vest, i added some weight and completed the circuits. My muscles felt good and i never went to failure with any of the exercises, but holy hell my heart was racing, i was sweating and felt fairly spent by the end of it. While I am not new to strength training this circuit training is something new......just wondering other peoples experience at this phase...thanks.

John J Kelly wrote:Hello everyone, Just wanted to say thank you for all the great information and discussion in this forum regarding the TFTNA Book and training program. I just started the transition phase and I am at the end of week 3. To refresh everyone's memory this is the week when you complete the strength training and core circuit twice through. My first two weeks i didn't really add much weight to the exercises mainly so i could get the forms down. This third week, which happened to coincide with a purchase of a weight vest, i added some weight and completed the circuits. My muscles felt good and i never went to failure with any of the exercises, but holy hell my heart was racing, i was sweating and felt fairly spent by the end of it. While I am not new to strength training this circuit training is something new......just wondering other peoples experience at this phase...thanks.

Yes, I felt the same way. Sweating all over my yoga mat and the floor. When you get up to 2x core and 4x general though, wow. I was in the gym for like 2 hours to complete those workouts. People were coming in to the gym, then leaving, and I was jut finishing my core "warm-up" when they were done with their whole workout. I hated the TGU's, but I made my self do them and do them with good form. Kettle Bells work well for TGU's. I still can't do a complete L-Sit, I'm getting close though. Take it easy around week 7/8. I was feeling really in shape and started pushing the weight up a little to fast when my body was pretty worn out after 6-7 weeks of increases in training with no break. Ended up with a minor injury that hurt my first couple of weeks of max strength training.

4x through...awesome can't wait! Yeah that L-sit is a tough one, I can get one twitchy leg off the floor at a time.

So the book has been out for just over 2 years now. Has anyone gone through 2 full training cycles? Notice significant results? Any good insights into what has worked and what hasn't?

I haven't made it through a full cycle yet, as injuries have prevented me from finishing. I made it about halfway through the base period, the first year, and climbed Mount Baker at that point. I found the structure provided by the book, particularly the strength training, was very beneficial. I'm working my way through an extended transition period now, hopefully peaking for spring ski mountaineering season next year.

Markuso wrote:So the book has been out for just over 2 years now. Has anyone gone through 2 full training cycles? Notice significant results? Any good insights into what has worked and what hasn't? I haven't made it through a full cycle yet, as injuries have prevented me from finishing. I made it about halfway through the base period, the first year, and climbed Mount Baker at that point. I found the structure provided by the book, particularly the strength training, was very beneficial. I'm working my way through an extended transition period now, hopefully peaking for spring ski mountaineering season next year.

There is a great post from "J.Colin.Olson" on/near page 18 of this thread. He had completed "three-ish" cycles. Some good info in the post.

I just completed my first 5 month cycle (I found the book in the middle of my training cycle). I dropped almost 2 minutes per mile off my Z1 and Z3 running times over the 5 month period. I just climbed Mt. Rainier last week. I was way over trained. Never even got as much as a tingle in my legs on summit day. I could have climbed it again the next day without question. The program definitely worked well for me and I am looking forward to starting my first full cycle the end of this summer.

David

No I have not been through even 1 cycle yet. But thought I would chime in with my thoughts.

I have just completed 20 weeks from a cycle right now. I planned the transition, base max strength, and base endurance to finish mid-summer, then segue into climbing season for sport specific gains.

I have not been back to take the assessment tests again to see if there has been improvement.

I can certainly say that approaching with heavy loads felt easier than it has in the past. And more importantly it appears that my recovery time from that stuff is down.

Definitely so far the cross training does not help with the actual climbing part though (no real loss of performance in the climbing gym, but no gain in head space or quickness with gear systems on the wall). That's where the climbing season comes in hopefully....so by the mid/end of this season, I can be accomplishing my goals.

timinthehouse wrote:I read through this thread but I'm still a little confused on some of the concepts for the training plan in accordance with TFTNA. Basically what i'm wondering is if I am to start a transition phase, and my weekly volume for weeks 1-3 should be 2.5 hours per week, is this 2.5 hours strictly for aerobic training volume? Where the time spent in general strength training and climbing would be excluded of this 2.5 hours? Or would aerobic training and time doing general strength and climbing be added into this 2.5 hour weekly volume as well? The reason I'm wondering this is because if time spent on general strength, climbing, and aerobic volume are calculate into the 2.5 hours per week then it will reduce my total aerobic volume for the week (unless I'm doing something like 15 minute general strength session), but if the strength and climbing are excluded then it would increase the volume of my aerobic training. Does this make any sense to anyone? I am trying to lay out a specific training plan that is in line with TFTNA and trying to formulate a baseline to start off of.

Thats a good question. When I read the book and looked at their supplemental training log, it would seem you base your your aerobic training on the percentages they specify of your total weekly volume. However, if you look at the charts specifically for the transition period near page 228, it uses the words "percentage of weekly aerobic volume". I can see your confusion. As far as I can tell from all areas of the books, I have the training log book as well, the percentages are for all your training. For example, if your training volume is 2.5 hours, your transition week 1 would be something like:

Z1 Aerobic (25% of Volume): 37.5 min
General Strength (Variable - Est. 30 min ) : 30 min
Z2 Aerobic (10% of Volume): 15 min
General Strength (Variable - Est. 30 min ) : 30 min

Leaving 37.5 minutes for climbing/remaining Z1 aerobic.

I started with a weekly volume of 3 hours and the numbers seemed small to me. I was already running 60 minutes - 3x a week. However, after a few months my first Z1 run of the week was 3.5 hours/17 miles. By then I fully understood why they started you so small.

Good luck!