Head and neck injuries with Asana gym mats?

T Roper wrote: Oh Peter, pulling a JQ "I climb so hard" now, nice work! I've only been at it for 20+ years with no injuries from climbing besides a finger or two. I love highball bouldering and always climb within my personal ability. You obviously need to just stay close to the ground so I have an idea- stay close to the ground or get your bro JQ to spot you at they gym! I know you guys wont do that because it wouldnt look cool and looking cool is very important to JQ. If you dont like it dont climb it, its really that easy.

Hahaha, T Roper, well played. You have beat the odds apparently though based on your site contributions your definition of "difficult" might be different from mine. So be it. Carry on.

Open letter to my gym- I'm super hardcore but can you please not set the hard part up high, it scares me and I need to save myself for training on pebbles outdoors where the conditions are 10x worse. I take training for training very seriously. I know when I buy a pad its usually quite stiff but can you soften yours up a little bit for me? Also, instead of putting the bolts 3' apart on your routes can you put them 2' apart? One more thing, can you install TR anchors on the really tall builder problems so I can work the problem out on TR first?

Thanks much, T Roper

If you want to be "hard" quit climbing and take up skateboarding. There is no crash pad when you fuck up down that 10 stair set, you sprain your ankle and slam to the concrete. As a bonus, if you really screw up a flip trick in to a flip trick on a rail you can land on your nuts and REALLY show everyone what a tough guy you are!

T Roper wrote:Open letter to my gym- I'm super hardcore but can you please not set the hard part up high, it scares me and I need to save myself for training on pebbles outdoors where the conditions are 10x worse. I take training for training very seriously. I know when I buy a pad its usually quite stiff but can you soften yours up a little bit for me? Also, instead of putting the bolts 3' apart on your routes can you put them 2' apart? One more thing, can you install TR anchors on the really tall builder problems so I can work the problem out on TR first? Thanks much, T Roper

Dear Mr. Super Hardcore

Please accept our condolences on the accident you had as a result of training for highballs in our gym. Holds do spin unfortunately but after reading your posts on mountain project we feel confident our lawyers can dismiss any liability claims you might try to make against us.

Please accept this free month pass for when/if you fully recover which could be a while considering your age. Rest assured you will remain a legend here no matter what. All the 10-year olds flashing V10 will cherish your name and remember your fearless example forever. Keep crankin' bro!

Affectionately,
Your local gym

PS We did take your advice and softened up the pads and saw a 10% rise in new memberships! So thanks for that! Our customers are more psyched than ever to train hard and safely.

T Roper wrote:Open letter to my gym- I'm super hardcore but can you please not set the hard part up high, it scares me and I need to save myself for training on pebbles outdoors where the conditions are 10x worse. I take training for training very seriously. I know when I buy a pad its usually quite stiff but can you soften yours up a little bit for me? Also, instead of putting the bolts 3' apart on your routes can you put them 2' apart? One more thing, can you install TR anchors on the really tall builder problems so I can work the problem out on TR first? Thanks much, T Roper

I think you really missed out on the value others have/could've added regarding the science of flooring and equipment safety. I don't know your personal interests but in regard to trad, I have read some incredibly interesting articles on equipment tests and situational experiments performed on said equipment. Just the other day I posted an update on a particular anchor system, only to have a guide comment back to me that it has changed yet again and this one year old video is out of date!

Climbing safety and gear is constantly being studied, revised and update as we learn new things. Why shouldn't the type of flooring used be studied as well? Why would you want to get hurt in the gym training for your high ball Boulder problem? Why wouldn't you want the gym to improve their flooring system so you can Boulder more easily? Frankly it seems a little immature to take the "toughen up" stance on this when time could be spent discussing ways to improve.

I'd love to see some research of different types of foams and how the absorb and disperse impact, also the difference in materials for catching different weights (which Beal's article alluded to). Heck, that could be very useful for outdoor bouldering pads too. I guess for now I will just man up and use a sack of flour.

I know some very hard climbers (v12) that climbed v10 in the gym before climbing outside ever. This said climbed never took the care to learn to spot and move pads and when going outside it resulted in TWO broken ankles in a day (two separate climbers).

So regardless of that side you are on, bouldering pads in a gym are like a grigri. Give an idiot the right to use them and someone will get hurt because they think "it is inside and must be safe".

Maybe some of you cant understand that this is general knowledge on commercial job sites and that hazard mitigations has three parts (protective barriers (crash pads), engineered barriers (continuous padding on floor) and personal/coworker awareness (or climber). Without all three no job site (or any areas for this matter) will ever be safe. So when you lack the personal awareness to go with the other given hazards, you are the risk creator.

Tim Lutz wrote:seem to be 2 groups forming here: 1) the bouldering area fall zone and surface should be studied and evaluated not only at individual gyms but also by the industry 2) harden the fvck up bitches the industry and gyms like Momentum rake in $$$$ hand over fist, yet don't give a flying fvck as to any real study on why their customers get injured? hey, they signed a wavier right? compound fractures build character! It's like indoor Trad! Movable pads mean your gym owner is cheap. Asana foam is stiff until it is suddenly way too soft. Gym owners like Asana because they use the cheapest foam they can get away with. They get savings, and climbers get injured. But you signed the waiver right?! Also, consider the environmental impact of using cheap foam that is replaced much more often than investing in quality mulit-density foam from the start. I've seen the process of 2 gyms being built, and a well-designed bouldering area with fall zone, quality padding, etc was sacrificed each time for a larger hold budget. I predict the industry will be much like the ski industry soon. In that, insurance will cover your ski area filled with excessive ways for people to get injured, but you will pay a premium because the investors would rather pay that increase per year than more upfront on improve facilities and safety.

The point of gym ownership, and the focus of the management is to maximize membership.
If the members get hurt, repetitively, management will recommend changes to accommodate the interests & safety of the members. (one can only hope)

Money talks, that cuts both ways, if a gym spends the money on expensive flooring they will still have to replace it after a period of time. There was a thread recently about the increasing costs and the justification of passing foreseeable cost on to members.

As an idea
stunt people crash into inflated bags that. Deflate when landed on.
I can imagine a vertical wedge*(?) shaped, standing inflated 'spotter'
like a blocking dummy in football.
I think *The shape needs to be carefully worked out,
but the idea of a catching 'platform'(?) that can be moved Around, is what I'm envisioning,

PosiDave wrote:I know some very hard climbers (v12) that climbed v10 in the gym before climbing outside ever. This said climbed never took the care to learn to spot and move pads and when going outside it resulted in TWO broken ankles in a day (two separate climbers). So regardless of that side you are on, bouldering pads in a gym are like a grigri. Give an idiot the right to use them and someone will get hurt because they think "it is inside and must be safe". Maybe some of you cant understand that this is general knowledge on commercial job sites and that hazard mitigations has three parts (protective barriers (crash pads), engineered barriers (continuous padding on floor) and personal/coworker awareness (or climber). Without all three no job site (or any areas for this matter) will ever be safe. So when you lack the personal awareness to go with the other given hazards, you are the risk creator.

Funny you mention the jobsite, this is yet another place I have spent close to 30 years with very few accidents, not because of safety equipment but because of my personal decisions. Close to 20% of my career has been up on roofs with no safety equipment besides some sticky shoes and a brain that tells me when to go and when to stop. Of course on larger jobsites you have the safety patrol (OSHA) that tends to stifle the work getting done at a profit making pace and this could be compared to what the folks are talking about here.

I see the points here but none of them have changed my mind. I've climbed on Asana mats when they were new and agree they are stiff as hell but so were all of my boulder pads when they were new. Quality foam is stiff when new. I smelled a hint of "lawsuit" in the OPs post, is this true?

I'm the biggest wuss outdoors on boulders, I wont take risks on tall(or short) problems with suspect landings (and suspect landings is the thing around here in the NE). I was just complimenting a local gym the other day(before this thread) for having such a tall bouldering wall, its nice to get a mini route or two in when not on the rope and my ego allows me to not finish a problem if I think its going to be a bad landing. Honestly it seems people need to drop the ego in the gym and back off or get a spotter if you really need to finish the highball with the crux at the top, just like you would do outside.

damn that was a lot of words my fingers and brain hurt...

Michael Schneider wrote: I can imagine a vertical wedge*(?) shaped, standing inflated 'spotter' like a blocking dummy in football. I think *The shape needs to be carefully worked out, but the idea of a catching 'platform'(?) that can be moved Around, is what I'm envisioning,

this is pretty much exactly what Central rock in CT and MA have(movable and on top of their already padded floor), 12" deep, super soft, full of air and soft foam and tapered on the edges.

T Roper wrote: I smelled a hint of "lawsuit" in the OPs post, is this true?

That was my first thought as well. Something about the title spelling out "head and neck injuries" rather than "are Asana mats too stiff?" is a bit off.

Falling from a tall boulder problem generally doesn't feel good, and I do believe that knowing how to fall properly is a learned skill. I've worked in several climbing gyms over 10 years, and the bigger ones would actually have "how to fall" as part of the intro to bouldering course.

Most newer gyms no longer use the drag mat design, but many older gyms will pick these up instead of completely reflooring a gym - which is way, way more expensive. They do carry a greater risk of ankle injuries (if you hit the edge), but like crashpads used outside (placed properly and with a spotter) are significantly safer than older padding.

That said, any size wall w/ any type of padding can still result in injury -

1) I've seen a pro competition climber require knee surgery after taking a four-foot fall onto soft padding. Just landed at a bad angle, firmness of the ground not considered the cause.

2) I've watched a child break their arm by putting out a hand to stop a fall, from about 8 feet up onto soft padding.

3) I've watched an adult severely dislocate their ankle (like facing entirely the wrong direction) from jumping down from the top of a boulder problem, instead of downclimbing a few moves to a safer drop.

I think generally the newer, stiffer padding design (which I've seen from multiple companies at most newer climbing gyms) create a safer environment, and it does require knowledge and agency on the part of the climber to know how to fall safely and when to get a spotter when necessary.

Most of the gyms also feature downclimb holds, and I know several setters who will always make the last few moves "gimmes" for the grade they are setting to prevent bad falls up high.

I think this raises the question of when is the gym responsible vs. when is the climber responsible.

If a hold spins and a climber hurts themselves as a result, is the gym liable?

If a setter creates a move with a potentially tweaky finger pocket move, and someone blows a tendon trying it - is the gym liable for the finger injury?

If a climber pulls out too much slack to clip a draw from below, slips, and takes a sharp fall back into the wall - is the gym liable?

mkclimb wrote: I think this raises the question of when is the gym responsible vs. when is the climber responsible. If a hold spins and a climber hurts themselves as a result, is the gym liable? If a setter creates a move with a potentially tweaky finger pocket move, and someone blows a tendon trying it - is the gym liable for the finger injury? If a climber pulls out too much slack to clip a draw from below, slips, and takes a sharp fall back into the wall - is the gym liable?

typical 'merican. Always looking for someone else to blame...

mkclimb wrote:1) I've seen a pro competition climber require knee surgery after taking a four-foot fall onto soft padding. Just landed at a bad angle...

Yup, same thing that happened to me (and mentioned earlier in this thread). Ruptured ACL and torn meniscus.

Look, if you boulder a lot, sooner or later you going to get an injury from it. If not an immediate one, then an eventual deterioration of the spine and neck. This just comes with the territory and padding can ameliorate it but can't stop it.

BITD before pads, high-ball bouldering was called free-soloing. The high-ball concept of something not quite free-soloing is the child of the pad revolution. Ironically, pads made high-ball bouldering, and now high-ball bouldering is complaining about pads.

Most of the questions posed here about gym liability are theoretical: I've never heard of anyone suing because a spinner. And most climbers understand---or ought to understand---that there are risks associated with jumping off things, even with padding underneath, and that there are downsides to both hard and soft padding and that differences in body weight and size might mean that there isn't an ideal compromise.

I see two issues I think gym owners ought to think about.

One is that the activity is massively promoted to very young children. Even those who say that everything that happens to a climber is the climber's responsibility because the climber made an informed choice can't maintain that stance where kids are concerned, because children are developmentally (and legally) incapable of informed choice. Presumably, the burden of responsibility is shifted to parents, but the parents in many cases are not climbers and don't have a clue. In any case, kids can jump out of a tree and break an arm; is a climbing gym really significantly different? I'd say only if the gym gives the impression that it is safer than it is.

Which brings up the second point. I don't think gyms are very good about representing the inherent dangers, even of gym climbing. The lighthearted atmosphere, increasing social component of the gym experience, and booming music that can block communication between climber and belayer, all these things speak of a risk-free entertainment, promoting distraction and blunting judgement when it comes to risk evaluation.

I don't know how to alter this environment; obviously no one wants something somber and ominous, but how about a lot more prominent posters on the dangers present, together with required viewing of things like the Petzl video on how not to belay?

Stagg54 wrote: typical 'merican. Always looking for someone else to blame...

I've spent a lot of time in a gym where people seemed to shatter a leg on a regular basis in the same location. There was a seam between pads directly under the finishing holds for one of their taller roofs. The seam was disguised by the cloth over the foam. I personally saw ~4 broken legs or ankles in this single spot, and I'm sure there were many more.

The gym didn't publicize this, or discuss it with members. That would just encourage lawsuits and discourage people from bouldering. Everyone signed a waiver right? Why fix the pads?

I owned a 10,000sq ft. gym down n Austin, TX for a few years. Maybe not super glamorous, but 18" of pea gravel baby! You could go 20 feet right onto your head, never had a single injury of any kind.

I know, gross and dusty. The boogers were incredible but it certainly did the trick.

T Roper wrote: Funny you mention the jobsite, this is yet another place I have spent close to 30 years with very few accidents, not because of safety equipment but because of my personal decisions. Close to 20% of my career has been up on roofs with no safety equipment besides some sticky shoes and a brain that tells me when to go and when to stop. Of course on larger jobsites you have the safety patrol (OSHA) that tends to stifle the work getting done at a profit making pace and this could be compared to what the folks are talking about here. I see the points here but none of them have changed my mind. I've climbed on Asana mats when they were new and agree they are stiff as hell but so were all of my boulder pads when they were new. Quality foam is stiff when new. I smelled a hint of "lawsuit" in the OPs post, is this true? I'm the biggest wuss outdoors on boulders, I wont take risks on tall(or short) problems with suspect landings (and suspect landings is the thing around here in the NE). I was just complimenting a local gym the other day(before this thread) for having such a tall bouldering wall, its nice to get a mini route or two in when not on the rope and my ego allows me to not finish a problem if I think its going to be a bad landing. Honestly it seems people need to drop the ego in the gym and back off or get a spotter if you really need to finish the highball with the crux at the top, just like you would do outside. damn that was a lot of words my fingers and brain hurt...

Exactly my friend. Everyone is so sue happy that they cant even take self responsibility. My job is directly related to climbing and watch people in other fields (Telecomm, Scaffold building) that have way large fatality rates because they choose to ignore the fact that ultimately they are responsible for using equipment properly or the may get hurt or die.

I watch people belay with a grigri and take their hand off the rope. My friend even grabbed a new gym employee belaying a children's party in such technique and verbally threaten him and his response was "dude it is designed to hold automatically".

I have climbed on Asana pads for 8 years and worked in a gym with Asana pads for over 2 years. From new to old and when took the 30 seconds to pad stack or rearrange pads, I was never hurt. But the time I acted like the OP I rolled my ankle on a soft edge that ended in a break.

It is climbing and you need to be careful. If you want to sue this gym, I strongly suggest that you start soloing climbs that start near a high ledge. You just want a check made out so you can cash in.

This thread isn't about sueing a gym. The original topic was about foam science and investigation.

grog m wrote:This thread isn't about sueing a gym. The original topic was about foam science and investigation.

Ah geeze, THANK YOU! I was looking for information on different types of flooring, including foam. In fact to quote myself: "I'm really just trying to find out more about these mats and how they are received in the climbing community. Particularly whether a certain density is ideal etc." A couple things I have taken from this for sure is:

(1) There is a lack of information on the science of flooring and landing mats for in the gym & outside. Would be nice to see more tests and information explaining the physics of impact on different foams.

(2) Almost no one has experience or knowledge about different types of foam. Maybe due to a lack of knowledge on what we are using in our products and a lack of available information.

(3) Some of you have very selective attention spans.

Also, I am not trying to sue anyone! Where did you get that idea? I love my gym, its a fantastic place to spend the winter. I have been debating whether to even give them feedback because I don't really want it to be received as a "complaint", but it literally feels like falling onto a sack of flour and I wonder if there are better options out there. The articles and links shared were very constructive and helpful, thank you for those who shared them.

Hank Caylor wrote:I owned a 10,000sq ft. gym down n Austin, TX for a few years. Maybe not super glamorous, but 18" of pea gravel baby! You could go 20 feet right onto your head, never had a single injury of any kind. I know, gross and dusty. The boogers were incredible but it certainly did the trick.

Curious- how tall were the walls? I have never bouldered over pea gravel although I have heard of it in gyms before, my guess would have been that it would make a terrible shock absorbing medium but obviously not if you had no injuries. I can see how this might reduce ankle rolls and fall injuries related to hitting the edge of the crash mat for sure. It seems very hard though.

a few years ago it seemed like movement boulder replaced their bouldering pads/flooring. it was literally like concrete for a couple weeks. the first time i came off, it was like my ribs almost went through my skull. then it all of a sudden was good. i was always curious if the pads softened up, or if they immediately yanked the hard padding and re-installed different padding. it seemed like it happened overnight. maybe somebody has more info on this?