Leaving Draws

I... I... I created a monster. Honestly I am just a noob, a gumby, who was curious about a full line of draws.

Newrivermike, I will not be messing with any project draws. I believe I was just distracted by shiny objects.

Tim Lutz wrote: So trads leave a smaller footprint than sport? ever been to Indian Creek... of the Valley?

The creek is not trad climbing. No routefinding or runnouts, bomber gear the whole way, people lining up and crowding around a staging area, Indian Creek is much more characteristic of a sport climbing area.

While there are surely bold climbs at the creek, 95% or more of people climbing there exhibit behavior characteristic of a sport climbing ethic. I cannot speak for the valley as I haven't the opportunity to go there.

Sure, climb on.

The first thing to understand about ethics is, aside from a few select rules, they are not universal. Ethics are regional. What might be considered inappropriate one place could be considered the norm in another. In the case of fixed draws, if we are talking about a sport crag, then it's very likely that fixed draws are ethically acceptable unless there is a rule preventing it for the purposes of maintaining access.

As with anything questionable, just ask the locals. If the locals say it's fine, then it's fine, done deal. If you're not a local to the crag, it's not your call.

Ethics are local - true, but then some local ethics also suck pretty hard.

Bottom line is leaving draws is a dick move and expecting them to still be there is just plain stupid. That said, the intent of the draws is clear, so if they aren't yours and you're not climbing the route then just leave shit alone.

I agree if there a route full of draws the person more than likely didn't bail. If there's one or two draws hanging at an obvious crux then it's more than likely a bail. But leaving draws up is pretty stupid I'll agree.

EDIT: If I leave cams lining a crack for a couple days and came back I would feel pretty dumb getting all upset about it completely cleaned. Maybe trad climbers have a completely different view on it though. I post up boot it'd gear and if you can describe it I'll get it back but I'm not going to hunt you down. Just my view, it seems to be shared though. mountainproject.com/scripts…;id=105973086

20 kN wrote:The first thing to understand about ethics

Is that that ethics are like erections: No matter how well intentioned they might be they are prone to sudden deflation.

-- Dougal Haston

Healyje wrote: Bottom line is leaving draws is a dick move and expecting them to still be there is just plain stupid.

Justin. S wrote:But leaving draws up is pretty stupid I'll agree.

Interesting. So you guys think that Sharma, Ondra, and just about every accomplished sport climber, are stupid dicks, eh?

When you park your car at a trail head and go climbing for the day, is expecting it to still be there when you get back just plain stupid?

Or how about returning to your campsite to find your tent, bag, food, stove, etc. is all gone because it's booty?

"Leave no trace?" Well then, let's close the parking lot at the trail-head, fill-in the trail, seed it with grass and deny access. And don't ever pull grass, loose rocks or bushes out of a crack so you can put your fingers in there, or a piece. Hey, don't brush off that lichen! Sling a tree and rappel in a thunderstorm? Hell no! Leave no trace!

This topic comes up far too frequently, and every time I'm amazed and saddened at how stealing from other climbers is justified with "pure" ethics. Perhaps the "stupid dicks" are the people who say stealing is ethical.

The leaving the car in the parking lot statement is probably the dumbest thing I've seen posted on MP you sound rediculous. Pretty much everything you posted is a stupid justification on your part. Really man, tent and food are booty? Come on.

Justin. S wrote:Really man, tent and food are booty? Come on.

The tent analogy is actually pretty apt to the leaving of project draws. Most people understand that if you leave a tent up at a basecamp while you're off on day trip explorations, it is NOT abandoned property. There are some places (heavily traveled parks, etc.) where leaving a tent up is not accepted practice, and if it gets stolen, it's kind of your own fault. But for the most part, if you get a tent stolen while you're off on a day hike, that sucks, and if you steal one, you are a piece of shit.

Same with draws. The situation dictates. And wouldn't it be awesome if people who are not familiar with Summersville and sport climbing would just STFU instead of spouting off in this thread?

If you want it to be a location specific thread then post it up in a regional forum where the location falls under, not the general sport climbing thread. If you did that the non locals might "STFU"

Dear Justin;

As you may have noticed, this thread is in the Sport Climbing forum, and leaving project draws is, and has been a well established practice in sport climbing for a very long time. Also, if you think that someone like John Byrnes does not know what he is talking about in relation to sport climbing, and that you are more knowledgeable, well...more power to you.

By no means am I saying I'm more knowledgeable than John. I'm just saying it's rediculous to compare someone grabbing a draw hanging from a route at a crux area to someone stealing your car from the parking lot, or jacking an entire campsite. Obviously if someone leaves a butt load of draws on a route there's a reason behind it and you shouldn't take them. With that said, if you get butt hurt about someone removing your draws from the route so they can climb it, or they climb on the draws and you're upset about plain and simple you're in the wrong. Like the video posted above shows only an idiot takes 30+ draws and figures someone just left them on accident. But to leave your gear out like that and not expect some scumbag to take in today's world is extremely naive.

The "cleaner" we leave a place, the longer it will stay "our" place.

Agreed Roy.

Justin. S wrote:By no means am I saying I'm more knowledgeable than John. I'm just saying it's rediculous to compare someone grabbing a draw hanging from a route at a crux area to someone stealing your car from the parking lot, or jacking an entire campsite. But to leave your gear out like that and not expect some scumbag to take in today's world is extremely naive.

We're not talking about grabbing "a" draw, singular, we're discussing taking a number of draws that are obviously left for redpoint attempts.

The word "compare" means to find things that are similar in several apparently different cases. So in all three cases private property is left unattended on public land. In all three cases it is theft. The only difference is that one is a felony and the other two misdemeanors.

So Justin, go for it. Please explain how a "scumbag" stealing a car or stripping a campsite is NOT like a scumbag stealing draws?

Please explain why (considering 1 million cars are stolen each year) it's "stupid" to leave draws on climb but not to leave your car in the lot?

Roy Suggett wrote:The "cleaner" we leave a place, the longer it will stay "our" place.

Sorry, in my opinion this is nonsense.

There are unlimited examples where a person or group is excluded even when they leave a place immaculately clean. One of the most extreme examples is a nearby "natural area" that prohibits kite-flying.

There are also unlimited examples of a person or group who is repeatably welcomed to a place that they abuse. Think off-road vehicles.

Paul Hutton wrote:Don't take them. You didn't buy them. They've already been paid for, and they don't retail for cheap. Taking what's not yours makes us all look bad and untrustworthy. Single 'biner somewhere on the middle of a route? Take it!

Wrong, dont do that its a cleaning beaner try again

This is just stupid. If you leave $5 at a bus stop do you expect that to be there when you get back?