Leaving Draws

I was at Summersville two days ago putting in work on a climb that is above my pay grade but seems attainable, a project if you will. The climb directly next to it is 5.13b. I noticed that all the bolts and the two rings up top all have some nice looking draws attached(on the 5.13b not my project). My first thought, Booty! Those were not there two months ago so obviously someone left them out of some strange reason. After a moment of self reflection, I realized its January whoever put these draws up is probably a local or someone that is coming here often enough when no one else is around. Because of this I thought I should leave them. After a little internal debate I decided not to mess with them.

So I pose my question, did I do the right thing? What do you do when you spot a ton of gear on the wall?

awwww, shiiitt.

they are project draws, you should leave them alone. Not everybody agrees with the practice, but I think just about everybody agrees taking them would be theft.

Happen to know the name of the routes next to it? Most of the perma draws there I have seen were screwed in. They should really tag them as do not remove if they don't want people to take them imo, been one some routes with normal biners with tape labeled do not remove for cleaning purposes.

you did the right thing. respect.

For all others who are going read this forum.... DO NOT TAKE THEM! Climb the route and use them, but do don't take them! Taking them would be a GUMBY move and is stealing!

jacob m s wrote:they are project draws, you should leave them alone. Not everybody agrees with the practice, but I think just about everybody agrees taking them would be theft.

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Yes, leave them. In some climbing areas hanging draws will be controversial but
some bad incidents have happened when people steal draws.

Finding a nest of cams and stoppers...that would likely be somebody retreating. Those might be legitimate booty, though if your community is small you might think about posting here or at the local gym or climbing store. Finding a line of cams and nuts...that is somebody working a gear protected climb. Personally I'd leave them but that is more of a judgement call.

ViperScale wrote:Happen to know the name of the routes next to it? Most of the perma draws there I have seen were screwed in. They should really tag them as do not remove if they don't want people to take them imo, been one some routes with normal biners with tape labeled do not remove for cleaning purposes.

The route is Skinny Legs at DC memorial boulder. To my knowledge there are not any perma draws at that area.

Typically when I see a piece of cord or a sling tied off I know not to take whatever gear is placed above that point. I will say I have cleaned routes of bail gear but that is a different rabbit trail off of this topic.

Honestly I don't have any problem with people leaving gear for a project but I know that it raises a bigger issue that falls in line with excessive amounts of chalk, bolts, visual degradation etc. etc.

I was starting to get worried when I hadn't seen a project draw thread for a few weeks....

Anyone getting into trad and need to know exactly what the perfect rack consists of?

Never find them, but I guess someone will come back for it, at least I will.

Don't take them. You didn't buy them. They've already been paid for, and they don't retail for cheap. Taking what's not yours makes us all look bad and untrustworthy. Single 'biner somewhere on the middle of a route? Take it!

Stephenmontgomery wrote:I was at Summersville two days ago putting in work on a climb that is above my pay grade but seems attainable, a project if you will. The climb directly next to it is 5.13b. I noticed that all the bolts and the two rings up top all have some nice looking draws attached(on the 5.13b not my project). My first thought, Booty! Those were not there two months ago so obviously someone left them out of some strange reason. After a moment of self reflection, I realized its January whoever put these draws up is probably a local or someone that is coming here often enough when no one else is around. Because of this I thought I should leave them. After a little internal debate I decided not to mess with them. So I pose my question, did I do the right thing? What do you do when you spot a ton of gear on the wall?

What route was this? If it was in the Colosseum, those aren't even project draws, they are very much fixed steel permadraws that are intended to be left there for the long term.

And particularly for Summersville (as opposed to Endless Wall or other areas within the NRG National Park), it is completely accepted by the land managers there for perma/project draws to be left up.

"obviously someone left them out of some strange reason"

Simply amazing. It might help to revisit the tale of the Smith Rock leprechaun:

dpmclimbing.com/articles/vi…

Jake Jones wrote: Now, having said that, don't think that you can leave project draws on a 5.11 anything and expect them to stay there.

Elitist mentality...lol

newrivermike wrote:"obviously someone left them out of some strange reason" Simply amazing. It might help to revisit the tale of the Smith Rock leprechaun: dpmclimbing.com/articles/vi…

All of your FA's were pinkpoints!!!111

Tim Lutz wrote: You have photos from the Red, New, and even Wyoming, but you have never seen project draws?!

He's trolling. Hardcore trolling

+1 for what Adam Stackhouse said. If it's a project then work it from the ground up. If you can't climb it, all the while doing the necessary work such as clipping the bolts, then don't be leaving your gear hanging there and expecting it to be there when you come back. Unless this is private property, remember the rules - leave no trace or access issues will ensue. Booty to be had.

No confusion. The rule applies to all users of public property. If there were any character, in the realm of rock climbing, that should be privileged to leaving something behind and to be collected later, it sure wouldn't be sport climbers...

Adam Stackhouse wrote: Elitist mentality...lol

Climbing has a long "proud" tradition of that:

8000M peaks: any seige tactics goes, lower peaks: better be self-sufficient!!!
Grade VI: sure, stash gear, fix ropes, whatever, Grade III: better not leave anything!!!
5.11 runout: sure, place a bolt: 5.6 runout: man the fuck up!!!
5.13 sport: draws help the next guy RP, 5.8 sport: booty!!!
aid route freed @ 5.13: aid away: aid route freed @ 5.11: get off the wall aid climbers!!!
V-doub: ticks are beta for the next guy: V2: clean off the ticks!!!

anything else?

Be mindful of the point. I think it's been documented in prior threads in regards to whom is leaving a larger footprint - I need not say more.

jaredsmokescigars wrote:Unless this is private property, remember the rules - leave no trace or access issues will ensue. Booty to be had.

The Army Corps of Engineers is totally cool with fixed/project draws at Summersville Lake. They do not endanger access. Removing them is stealing.

Fixed and project draws are two separate items. As far as Indian Creek goes...look at the lineage of the dominant group of people who are primarily drawn to the area. These people are not traditional trad climbers. Indian creek does require traditional gear but is far from what I think many of us would classify as "trad" climbing in regards to ethics and style. Who finishes a climb, possibly the crux move, by dynoing to the chains or lugs 20 #2's up a 1 pitch climb.