Hard/slick rock and passive/active pro

So based on another question about a specific crag I'm heading to in a few weeks, I have a question for those with a lot of trad experience. I am wondering if passive pro, placed well in a constriction that resists the direction of pull and set hard would be okay in rock that is known to spit out active pro like cams. Should I stay with nuts/hexes when the rock is hard and/or slick? Or is this a good way to garner many "yer gunna die" posts? This assumes the rock is not chossy, just hard and/or smooth. When the local beta suggests that a given type of rock "doesn't take pro" do they mean any pro at all, or does this assume that most leaders place a lot of cams, therefore, stay off this rock on lead... Thanks for any experience you can share.

Matthew Williams 1 wrote:So based on another question about a specific crag I'm heading to in a few weeks, I have a question for those with a lot of trad experience. I am wondering if passive pro, placed well in a constriction that resists the direction of pull and set hard would be okay in rock that is known to spit out active pro like cams. Should I stay with nuts/hexes when the rock is hard and/or slick? Or is this a good way to garner many "yer gunna die" posts? This assumes the rock is not chossy, just hard and/or smooth. When the local beta suggests that a given type of rock "doesn't take pro" do they mean any pro at all, or does this assume that most leaders place a lot of cams, therefore, stay off this rock on lead... Thanks for any experience you can share.

It would help a lot to know what exact type of rock you're talking about and where it is located, but in general, as long as there is a constriction and the rock is solid, passive pro will work great. Generally speaking, slick limestones and quartzites tend to be the types of rock that don't provide enough friction for a cam to hold in all situations, and in both of these types of rock, a nut or a hex in a constriction will be perfectly fine.

Thanks Kennoyce, yeah the rock is quartzite - very hard. Lots of nubbins and crystals in it. I appreciate the feedback!

Your questions are so general that most of the answers you get will probably be useless to you, but here goes.

You asked: "I am wondering if passive pro, placed well in a constriction that resists the direction of pull and set hard would be okay in rock that is known to spit out active pro like cams."

Assuming that the rock is not choss, the crack is not flaring (much) or bottoming, there are two situations that can make cams less than optimal: 1 - Soft slick rock like limestone, and hard slick rock like certain kinds of polished and/or super-fine-grained basalt or quartzite.

Next you asked: "Should I stay with nuts/hexes when the rock is hard and/or slick?"

The answer is that it's just not that simple. Depending on the exact configuration of the rock, cams can be either garbage or perfect in such situations. If you expect to be able to just plug a cam in anywhere you can stuff it and it stays, then yeah, you're gonna die. There's a lot more to placing cams than that.

Last you asked: "When the local beta suggests that a given type of rock "doesn't take pro" do they mean any pro at all, or does this assume that most leaders place a lot of cams, therefore, stay off this rock on lead..."

Usually when a climb, a crag, or a type of rock is described as "not taking pro" it means exactly that: There are very few natural placements, and you would need to run it out long distances, probably spending much of your time in the "no fall zone" of climbing. This is why sport climbing was invented. Though for short and not very steep cliffs, often just toproping is a better option.

Cheers,

GO

Got it Gabe - maybe best to stay on top rope there then. Thanks for taking the time.

I'd say you have the right idea. My local crag is basalt, which is highly fractured, but can be extremely hard and slick in spots. I have seen one SLCD and two tri-cams pull out under lead falls (three separate occasions).The aluminum actually smears and leaves a streak on the rock. I always use nuts when possible. Remember to set a re-direct for your first piece to avoid the reverse zipper effect.

kennoyce wrote:It would help a lot to know what exact type of rock you're talking about and where it is located

Based on your other post, I'm going with Great Falls, VA. If so Matthew, have you read this post on that specific topic for Great Falls?

Good link Mojo - I will definitely go over that - appreciate it.

Thanks Jesse, I have learned to place a cam to prevent upward pull, but depending on what's available I could probably get something passive in, oriented up.

Active gear is based on the gear itself pushing into the rock (basically I don't know if there is ever a 100% chance to know it will hold, even if it is set and looks perfect).

Passive gear is based on the gear not changing pulling into a constriction. Generally passive gear will always hold a fall if set correctly (unless the rock breaks). I would always go for passive over active is possible (unless easy climbing and you care more about cleaning easy over holding a fall).

The only issue I see with passive gear in slick rock is if it isn't set and pulls out as you climb upward.

Mike Mu. wrote: Matthew hit me up if you ever want to climb. I see your profile photo is Annapolis rocks which is essentially in my backyard. I can show you some other nice crags in the region too.

same here Matthew (and Mike)
I'm not to far from you Mike. Pond Bank is a favorite of mine.

Many cracks were used for aid practice back in the day, so it clearly takes passive given the right circumstances (good constrictions/tight bottlenecks). Still, cams have been known to skate out of the rock at great falls. Experienced climbers in the area use it as a toprope only place.

The real question is why you'd want to risk a potential gear-pulling fall on a slick, overused, ultra short crag? Just toprope there and save the leading for a more appropriate area. Old rag is in season and offers some real crack lines that are not only safely protectable, but also tall, clean, and at altitude.

I think this should end the discussion regarding leading at GF or Caderrock. It's from a very well-accomplished DC area climber:

climbinbob wrote:...Yes, you can lead at GF, but it is not recommended, because of the geology. If large chunks of rock pull, not only will you probably get hurt, but you have ruined a climb for lots of other people. It's primarily a top-rope area, and the last thing we need to do as a climbing community is to have the park service shut it down. This almost happened several years ago... Go to the Gunks, the New, or Seneca to lead.

There you have it.
Keep yourself safe. Avoid altering or damaging the rock. Keep climbing access open.

I think these are pretty good reasons to take your toprope kit to GF and leave the gear for trips elsewhere.

BrianWS wrote:I think this should end the discussion regarding leading at GF or Caderrock. It's from a very well-accomplished DC area climber: There you have it. Keep yourself safe. Avoid altering or damaging the rock. Keep climbing access open. I think these are pretty good reasons to take your toprope kit to GF and leave the gear for trips elsewhere.

Yeah I agree with the above having read the whole thread. I won't lead at GF or Carderock for the all above reasons, not when there is lots of other good places to continue to learn. Mike Mu and McHull, sounds good for hitting some other local MD crags later this year. Appreciate the offer - I'm always happy to second as much as lead as well.

Hmm. This thread is interesting, as my closest crag (Devil's Lake, Wisconsin) is mostly slick quartzite, yet I haven't heard of the "don't lead on slick rock" mentality. Although toprope access is easy, the area has a rich leading tradition, and I learned to lead there. Never had too many issues with cams pulling, although to be fair, I definitely haven't stress-tested them with big whippers. A lot of people use mostly passive gear, but that also seems to be mostly due to the "old school" vibe of the place.

Ted Pinson wrote:Hmm. This thread is interesting, as my closest crag (Devil's Lake, Wisconsin) is mostly slick quartzite, yet I haven't heard of the "don't lead on slick rock" mentality.

Well-placed cams can pull in slick rock. I have had it happen a few times in basalt and once on a polished finger lock in Yosemite. I recall a user on RC.com who ripped three .75s and decked because the lobes never engaged due to a lack of friction. So yes, it is possible, which is in part why bolted limestone cracks are not that uncommon.

Yeah, I've seen it happen in limestone before...I had a 0.75 start to pull just off of my body weight when I was on direct. My understanding is the trouble with limestone is it can also be fragile too, no? Passive pro should still work in theory as long as you have a good constriction, but with a lead fall on limestone, you're likely to shatter the rock. With Quartzite, this isn't an issue...so he should be fine if he sticks to nuts and hexes, no? I know for a fact that people whip on them all the time in Devil's Lake.

I have climbed on Welsh slate and never had a rip, but i guess shit happens.

Do not lead at great falls, there are few options for pro, and the rock is slick and soft. A great falls rack usually consists of a 60-90' of webbing, some lockers, and a few pieces of gear for the odd place when you need it for a TR anchor. Also do not lead at Carderock. Top-roping is the norm in crags local to DC.

Edit: I read half the thread. Obviously this is covered.
Check out Annapolis rocks in MD. It's a mini-gunks.

When I was learning to lead, I ignored the conventional wisdom and went to Great Falls to take some practice falls on gear. On the first fall my stopper ripped out and shattered the rock it had been placed in. There's a reason they call mica schist "mica shit."

For leadable rock closer to DC, try Annapolis Rocks, Crescent Rocks, Rocks State Park, Buzzard Rocks, or even Sugarloaf.

I disagree about Old Rag: once you factor in the drive and the hike, you could damn near be to Seneca in the same amount of time. If you go to Old Rag, do it for its own sake, not because you're expecting a shorter trip.

Aaah, so it's slick AND fragile? That explains it. Definitely not worth trying to lead there, then.