The Erik Sloan ethics thread

^^^
You don't have a case to rest guy, plenty of us have met and/or climbed with Christian. You, on the other hand...anonymous troll.

divnamite wrote: I got no skin in this game, but are you still gonna chop them?

Mr. Sloan actually answer today that he have nothing to do with this route creation and bolting and provide the name of FA climber. He also claimed that " It's not a crack, it's face climbing". My impression from last Sunday [when I first time saw this route and made a photo] - that 5 out of 7 bolt there are redundant if the crack can provide adequate protection. But I can be wrong. Only after climbing this route conclusions can be made. Right now it is wet. I'll try to climb it in early spring or earlier if weather permit, and do update. If I am wrong - so nothing to chop. If some bolts are redundant - I will contact Schuyler Collet [FA] and offer to him to remove those bolts in question. Honestly going into chopping business where I've never been before is not very exiting for me but when you say "A" you need to continue to "Z'

That sounds like a good idea Alexey. Go police an area that really isnt yours to police. This will end well.

Hard to argue with your sarcasm mediocre. My personal experience with bolt choppers is bad - they ether ego driven or a-hols. But probably good bolt-choppers exist?
Edit: Oh, they actually exists: I've heard about at least one good guy : Albert who chopped mid- anchor on BOR

Will S wrote:^^^ You don't have a case to rest guy, plenty of us have met and/or climbed with Christian. You, on the other hand...anonymous troll.

the tradiban continue eh Will "s"?

nice threat Alexy, we await your results in the SPRING

God damn I love the USA (world police), land of the free as long as you believe what I do. Donald trump would be proud.

Well this escalated at an amazing pace!

I thought I was going to spend my Christmas Eve morning watching questionable mid-80s german guy-on-guy-on-girl porn; but this is WAY better. Thank you all.

I'm still trying to figure out what the ultimate goal is here? I'm not on the side of ES, nor am I on the side of the complainants. But regardless, an internet forum isn't the place where grown men should be trying to solve real world issues and come to resolution.

Wouldn't it be much easier to collectively meet up at the El Cap Bridge in say, April, and bring our iron racks and start throwing them at each other? Helmets optional maybe? Last one standing maybe gets to write the next Royal Robbins Ethics Manual?

Yes, Sloan has done some work which is offensive to certain community members; maybe even everyone. But throwing rocks from behind a keyboard is just simply retarded. If you want to solve the problem, go chop his bolts if it pisses you off that badly. Or go meet him in the meadow and try to wrestle him with your shirts off so the chicks can see your ripped traps.

I can say that it is evident that Erik has addressed you all publicly in this forum trying to come to a resolution. Maybe its time that a resolution should be the primary goal instead of name-calling and forum-trolling.

So back to the original question; What is the ultimate goal here?

Alexey wrote: Mr. Sloan actually answer today that he have nothing to do with this route creation and bolting and provide the name of FA climber. He also claimed that " It's not a crack, it's face climbing". My impression from last Sunday [when I first time saw this route and made a photo] - that 5 out of 7 bolt there are redundant if the crack can provide adequate protection. But I can be wrong. Only after climbing this route conclusions can be made. Right now it is wet. I'll try to climb it in early spring or earlier if weather permit, and do update. If I am wrong - so nothing to chop. If some bolts are redundant - I will contact Schuyler Collet [FA] and offer to him to remove those bolts in question. Honestly going into chopping business where I've never been before is not very exiting for me but when you say "A" you need to continue to "Z'

jump to conclusions much?

StSteor wrote: Wouldn't it be much easier to collectively meet up at the El Cap Bridge in say, April, and bring our iron racks and start throwing them at each other? Helmets optional maybe? Last one standing maybe gets to write the next Royal Robbins Ethics Manual?

This.

StSteor, the goal seems to be dragging this on in an attempt to stop people from buying his new book. I would argue there is no such thing as bad publicity. I didn't even know he was writing one until this thread.

mediocre wrote:That sounds like a good idea Alexey. Go police an area that really isnt yours to police. This will end well.

Well actually the national park belong to EVERYONE. Its EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY to speak up about blatant disregard for established ethics in YNP.I think some self policing is necessary. What else can you do when all the details are being presented. Someone could be a snitch and bust him for power drilling.

Not meant as a threatening comment, I wouldn't be surprised to hear this eventually becoming physical at one point or another. Not everyone is willing to just sit by and let others endanger thier freedoms.

Mother nature is not yours.

question ..... why is someone who can't climb 5 .11 and has bad climbing ethics publishing a climbing book?

"question ..... why is someone who can't climb 5 .11 and has bad climbing ethics publishing a climbing book?"

Publishing guidebooks is about bringing together the information. Climbing many routes, knowing people who are willing to contribute topos etc. Not about cranking 5.15 or doing many FAs. You can write a guidebook, if you want to spent a bunch of your time chasing topos and putting it all together.
I am intrigued to read the "Ethics" section of his new books. Although, I will not buy it.

Alexy, climb the route (with a bolted crack), than make the decision about if the bolts are necessary. I have jumped to judge the parties that did FAs and bolted some sections in a way that I did not think were necessary. But it is up to the FA party really.
Unless they are bolting a 5.9 hand crack in the valley, it is their call how to bolt, if the line is undone. I have placed bolts next to cracks that could perhaps be cleaned and protected with rehearsed offset placements. But that would encourage sport climbing tactics on a 2,000 ft free climb, in my example. There is a lot of decision making that goes into putting up routes. And a lot of decision making that goes into re-bolting routes. How well do you bolt a line you aided/rehearsed on top rope and can protect with less bolts than one who is trying to onsight would need? Are you making the line for yourself or to a certain population? Do you place bolts so that someone who is 5'2 could clip from the stance? How skillful do you have to be to do a FA which you are bolting? Someone who has more skills/balls, can do it with less bolts! Where do you draw the line? A lot of gray area while bolting FAs/re-bolting routes with bolts that need to be replacing. I have done many routes where I thought the original belay or a certain bolt was out of place. If I was re-bolting those, some real decision making would have to be made regarding where I place something that will be there for the next 60+ years. Will I be hated if I move the original semi free-hanging belay 20 feet higher to a good stance? Altering the established route right? But I have been on FAs where we added a bolted anchor, than climbed 30ft higher and discovered a much better stance. When one is on a FA, you have no idea what is above, so at times you do things that do not make as much sense to those who climb the route later. The question is how much logical change is okay during the time the route is re-bolted. How many people are there in CA REPLACING 200+ bolts a year? I bet for most on this thread, re-placing a single bolt would be a BIG deal.
So I am not one with extreme hate towards ES. Replacing all those bolts that he did in the Valley has to cut him some slack. He presented his reasons for why added the BOR anchor, and the community disagreed with validity of those. Anchor is not there now (as far as I understand?), and that is that. He never confirmed using a power drill in the park, so unless someone has a picture of him doing it, these are accusations. Wish you all a Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas Gang!

Alexey: For sure I respect your question about some climb that you are 'concerned' about. It just comes off pretty weird, when I have a published book that says I climb 5.9 and my favorite climb is Royal Arches, 5.6, and you make a very aggressive post on this forum, where you work as an administrator, asking me heatedly if this 5.11b climb is in fact a bolted crack and if I had anything to do with it. Whoa man, that is not how you build community. HOw about start a thread about that route? That might be a good start, no?

There really are several bolted cracks in YOsemite, though that is not one of them. I just made the guidebook, I know - Scrubby Corner and a couple others in Mecca are bolted(Scrubby is like 140'!).

Powerdrills? Yawn. Same as Base Jumping, right? No one's doing it I swear. You guys are so silly - nearly everyone putting up routes here(and I'm definitely not putting up routes here) is using power drills. What happened to the thread on ST this spring where the title was 'I saw someone powerdrilling in the Valley yesterday'? What ever happened to that witchhunt?

The NPS going nuts over powerdrills is not the answer - forming groups to research and develop the best bolting practices and equipment is the answer. Just like pot - they're still going crazy about it here in Yosemite, but when I lived briefly in Colorado, people are like 'yeah, what's the big deal'(I don't smoke, so maybe an easy statement to make, haha). Witchhunts for pot smokers and powerdrillers will be later looked at like the NPS feeding the bears - better education is what we need. (I predict that future studies will show that hand drilled bolts are, on average, 25-30% weaker and less safe than powerdrilled holes).

Guys - the goal here should be to come together as a community. Our climbing organization in Yosemite has achieved Park Partner status this year, but oddly doesn't have any committees or climber groups that interface with the management here or take care of issues. Let's start by talking about what issues we think are big in 2016 - real issues. Like I"ve been staying in Camp 4 while finishing this Free Climbs book, and there is no climber display that talks about the history at all - in the most famous place for climbing. The bathrooms are atrocious. I can't imagine them with 200 people a night staying there.

Come on gang - let's make the goal of this thread to have a more productive 2016 in Yosemite. Woot Woot! E

Erik Sloan wrote:Whoa man, that is not how you build community. Woot Woot! E

Fukin-a, irony is dead. Ignoring the wishes of the vast, overwhelming majority of the climbing community (and yes, I've lived and worked in the valley full time before you down that bs 'locals' road), is the way to "build community"?

I'm starting to think brain damage or personality disorder is the only explanation for the "logic" of Mr. Sloan.

"HOw about start a thread about that route? That might be a good start, no?"

Good start is to climb it first. Find the person who did the FA and ask him why the bolts are there, if it is not obvious after climbing the route. I am sure there will be a good answer to that there somewhere. Usually is.

I've watched the mud slinging in silence for long enough. . . Count me among those who will fervently oppose and erase your retrobolting transgressions.

I reckon you are playing a mere numbers game, wagering that dumbing everything down to a level of playground safety will appeal to the ever exploding gym-produced volumes of gumbies on the cliffs.

We may be a dying breed, but there are some in the younger generation who actually care about the ethics established by our predecessors. You don't get to rewrite the rules for your benefit, nor claim that your egregious behavior occupies a grey area.

Someone mentioned on the other thread that Alex and Tommy are posting under K Weber and T Roper. It might offer a little perspective to conversation. Can anyone confirm?

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You're right, they do belong to everyone. However, I would argue that people would still be just as pissed off at ES's actions on these routes if YNP were just a bunch of BLM land or USFS land. It's upsetting that this is a NP from an access/relationship with the rangers perspective. From what I've read of this thread, the designation of the land is secondary to the fact/allegation that ES is retrobolting or adding redundant bolts in an area that is of historic significance to climbing.

Alexey had stated that he had not climbed or at least not climbed much here. I was merely saying that it has a good chance of starting more fires if people who climb in YNP once a year start showing up in droves with bolt cutters in their hands. Self policing is necessary, but that sounds more like vigilantism.

ballnuts wrote:Someone mentioned on the other thread that Alex and Tommy are posting under K Weber and T Roper. It might offer a little perspective to conversation. Can anyone confirm?

signed up an hour ago to say what?

Can we call a Christmas truce on this thread for a day? Surely if the Brits and Germans could do it ~100 years ago, surely we can here.

T Roper wrote: signed up an hour ago to say what?

someone might value the opinion of a guy getting phone calls from the head of the country.