New Canadian Ice Grading System

Interesting...I've been climbing ice since 1975, yes, times have changed! I agree that a route usually gets easier as it gets more ascents. My solution is to go and find something that hasn't been PO'd (Pissed On/Off?). Understand, that's easier for us old guys who aren't looking for Grade 6! Maybe the grading system needs to factor in the number of cars in the parking lot first. But, really what prompted me to reply was (and I know I'm really showing my age here), for Christ's sake learn how to spell and form coherent sentences! Then maybe you'll get some cred from the old school.

Mike,

In the Lower wherein fairly good ice conditions typically exist (not Canadian style; different league of the universe), we've seen over the "more than 15 years of ice climbing group of good climbers" who know how to "ballet up the route", leave minimal traces, i.e, not baseball bat swings, no football (American or Canadian) "punt kicks", aka, huge steps.

"Just enough swing", stagger the next tool but not same height, front point the pick hole(s), repeat. The barely detectable, pattern of good climbers on new, clean ice.

Years ago, next team on the ice (same day, same week, doesn't matter), if good, followed prior route and with minimal trace, however, each time a team gets on a route, the more the climb's traces are seen. Nevertheless, back in the day, these routes could remain not as picked and stepped out so soon, and not quickly trashed.

It seems in the last 5 years, good climber's small traces have led to less experienced teams looking for (or stumbling across), such "traces" and within an unusually short period became hugely hacked out, steps like a ladder, etc. Presumably, the delicately climbed, harder routes quickly become like bread crumbs for others whose technique is swinging carpenter-like and in short order, say even a week later, a good team, say the first on the unclimbed, perfect ice see (to their horror but we are used to it now) a route with entirely new characteristics, sometimes barely identifiable.

So, now the route is like riding a ferris wheel; anyone can climb step ladders.

Have you seen this fast-forward shift in Canada, i.e., a barely picked out route rather suddenly become a highway, more quickly than in us old timer days? A grade 5 rather quickly gets reduced to 4-, then 3+ in short order? I think you described a similar, if not identical evolution in your opening narrative, but wanted to refine the issue a bit more.

As a side comment -- sort of but related -- I could argue that heavily kicked out steps can actually become dangerous and quickly when the temps warm up suddenly and said steps get mushy (but may not be obvious at first or said condition is higher on the route and not so expected). Not as solid as they appear (in which case, a good climbing team will walk away not only for safety reasons but now the climb is just a bummer). I think the term "dangerous" is not common and intentionally over-exaggerated to make a point
however, have seen newbies punch through and collapse a section of steppy-ness. On occasion, have seen less experienced climbers try to down climb such conditions which, if not careful, can place greater force on dicey steps. Admittedly very rare.

Last point re: "steps". Too many inexperienced climbers think that when approaching the steps, they need to take a baseball bat swing onto another, higher step rather than hooking it (and if they do not have curved shafts and/or know how to use them, the result is the shaft hits the ice first, as one commenter complained about earlier - he needs new tools and/or better technique). If that type of climber continues with that and fails to pay attention to hooking, the "bulls ahead" cycle repeats itself; worst begats worse. Even "hooking" is an art in and of itself, IMO. I think the best way to learn hooking is to watch those that really know how to do it, and form your own style.

The above example is so "American"; bombing before diplomacy.

If yes (more picked out more quickly) who, generally speaking, are the hackers, if you can even generalize -- probably impossible to guess? Canadians finally becoming carpet bombing American ice climbers, or more Canadians climbing, the presumption being "more is simply more", ergo, no surprise that routes get picked/kicked more quickly than when we were climbing in the Pleistocene Era, simply because there are more climbers?

Certainly, new tool designs should improve technique, de facto, but that seems to not be the case. I have seen the real old timers (older than you and me and that's pretty old) in the Alps on easier, rather non-technical ice (not as difficult anyway) swing their long straight-shafted tools with obvious, very experienced grace, and stick the spot perfectly, second swings unnecessary.

(Your system is brilliant and a natural course of any types of climbing (rock, ice, bouldering (a more perfect example of "wrestling rocks" to evolution of grading systems.) Eventually the informal discussion of difficulty meets with serious minds about how to grade difficulty, ice being the most difficult to do so for a variety of reasons (which you know all about).

Excellent phraseology!
And good points, too. It all comes down to good judgement and proper technique, eh? Something I've noticed is there are more city-dwelling, gym-trained jocks with Grade 5 arms and Grade 2 technique. Not sure how a grading could address that, except to suggest that climbers new to ice spend some time on lesser difficulty climbs and learn how to use their tools and gear before chasing grades.
To quote Tom Patey "an 'inexperienced climber' is one who should be kept out of the mountains at all costs!" Just kidding, we all have to start somewhere! And,(with all due respect) by his own definition, he's an 'experienced climber'..."one whose death was unavoidable!"

rotflmao

Nemesis is in, French Reality and a lot of other stuff on Stanley Headwall as of earlier this week.

Record high temps in the North-East...

powhound84 wrote:Hey Mike, this would be way more entertaining and easier to absorb if you went over your ideas in one of your youtube videos. Not to say you aren't a good writer because you are but your personality helps make the material more enjoyable in the vids. Just a thought.

your right
on it's way

Hell, Just go back to rating everything 5.9A2 WI4 like you did in the old days.

Mike J Barter wrote: your right on it's way

Mike and Powhound84:

Could not agree more: would be great on your YouTube videos, however, I suspect it would/should be a series of videos, 3-4? A lot of territory to cover and I think you would have to a lot of videography to do in order to find -- and photograph at just the right angles -- your system. Am sure you have so many pics and videos that, compiled, would show what you are talking about; maybe no need for more photos or video.

But keep posting too; don't abandon one for the other. Quite the buzz about your system.

Luc wrote:Record high temps in the North-East...

Luc, ironic, yes, compared to last year when the major deep freeze kicked in? Was not there that time of year; how do the temps/conditions compare to last year at the same time now?

Anything in at all?

The NE freeze didn't kick in until a few days after Christmas last year. This year looks similar.

Warbonnet wrote: Luc, ironic, yes, compared to last year when the major deep freeze kicked in? Was not there that time of year; how do the temps/conditions compare to last year at the same time now? Anything in at all?

Bunch of first ascents at this cliff on December 6-7, we were walking across the frozen lake (8+" thick).

mountainproject.com/v/cap-i…

And was climbing shaded gullies late November.
This year sucks, last weekend I went to scout something near the Poke-O waterfall, there was a pile of fallen ice at the base, it had been growing and just got wiped off.
Last season was too cold, a lot of ice stopped growing and repairing itself, Keene got trashed by the ice fest and it never came back properly, Curtains that used to touch down needed some mixed starts. But there was still a whole lot of climbing to be had.

lukeweiss wrote:The NE freeze didn't kick in until a few days after Christmas last year. This year looks similar.

I climbed in Cascade Pass and NFOP this weekend last year. I'm sitting around my buddies this morning. We're flipping through ADK Rock not Blue Lines.

The Dacks seem to always be colder than MWV though..

Wasn't it raining on christmas day last year?

I climbed in november, a few days before everything came down on thanksgiving. but must have been too busy to notice the early december freeze.

Luc wrote: Bunch of first ascents at this cliff on December 6-7, we were walking across the frozen lake (8+" thick). mountainproject.com/v/cap-i… And was climbing shaded gullies late November. This year sucks, last weekend I went to scout something near the Poke-O waterfall, there was a pile of fallen ice at the base, it had been growing and just got wiped off. Last season was too cold, a lot of ice stopped growing and repairing itself, Keene got trashed by the ice fest and it never came back properly, Curtains that used to touch down needed some mixed starts. But there was still a whole lot of climbing to be had.

Luc, thanks much. Have not climbed Willoughby (yet). I assume conditions and pre-conditions are similar, i.e., if this is in, Willoughby should be too? Assume as cold last year at Willoughby as New Hampshire?

Warbonnet

You would've found out if you followed through with meeting me in NH last year! Sorry about the injuries last season!

lukeweiss wrote:Wasn't it raining on christmas day last year? I climbed in november, a few days before everything came down on thanksgiving. but must have been too busy to notice the early december freeze.

I remember climbing early December and there being a ton of snow, it did get warm and the four feet of snow melted. I remember it was warmer over the holiday but don't remember rain. New Year's was insanely crowded! We did a route that has no approach trail thinking no one would be there. Got there and one party ahead and two when we were rapping.

Maybe NY is cooler than NH??

lukeweiss wrote:The NE freeze didn't kick in until a few days after Christmas last year. This year looks similar.

I led three pitches in the Catskill last year on Dec 15th. We were TR'ing there 3 weeks before that. It was cold early.

Bill Kirby wrote: You would've found out if you followed through with meeting me in NH last year! Sorry about the injuries last season!

Well, Dr. Kirby, you are correct and I know paybacks are a bitch, but THIS YEAR, count on a visit. I'll trust you will prohibit anyone from climbing any routes, esp. Repentance & Remission until we get there. What did the billion degrees below zero do to those routes?

erik wellborn wrote:Hell, Just go back to rating everything 5.9A2 WI4 like you did in the old days.

I didn't think there was anybody left alive that that remembers that grade!!