The Bolting End-Game

20 kN wrote: The 5-piece is one of the most common bolts used in the USA. I have no idea what the exact numbers are, but it's in the top three most common for sure. If we are talking about specific models, I would suspect the Power Bolt is actually the single most common bolt used in the United States. If we are talking about bolt types, wedge bolts are probably slightly more popular, but I doubt by much.

At least in the areas I've climbed in the US, 5-pieces are much more common than any other type of bolt. I'd say I see somewhere around 3 5-piece bolts for every wedge bolt in most areas. It is important to remember though that 5-pieces are predominantly a north American thing and really aren't used much if at all in the rest of the world.

kennoyce wrote: Matt, I thought the same thing, but I contacted climb tech and was told that they are being made of 316L again. I told them that they need to put that information on their website and they took me up on it. Check it out: climbtechgear.com/wave-bolt…

Awesome - Glad to see. I'll remove the other post to avoid clutter. Glad they went back to 316L (or never left?)

Jim Titt wrote:AustriaAlpin make 316L hangers, we supply either these or the 304 ones depending on what the customer wants. A 10mm 316 wedge bolt and a 316 hanger costs roughly $4.50 -$5.00 delivered to the USA. Raumer also make 316 hangers as do Climbing Technology and a number of other companies but I don´t deal with their products. 5-piece and sleeve type bolts are unpopular in the construction industry (and with climbers) so the choice is lower and the price higher. 316 glue-ins are made by just about everyone I´d guess. An order of 300 6mm twisted leg bolts 80mm long in 316L from us delivered to the continental USA would cost $2.99 each inc freight, 150 bolts would cost $3.20 etc.

Jim - Do you know anything about how customs handles the shipment? How have others fared in the past? I ask having several poor experiences with carabiners coming in and a less than understanding "customs agent" calling them some other BS that had a higher tariff.

Jonathan Cunha wrote:Anyway, where exactly does one get 316 SS bolts + hardware (that doesn't literally cost an arm and a leg) in the US?? Cool thread...

Stay tuned. We (AF, ASCA and potential supplier) are meeting tomorrow.

Jim Titt wrote: Is that on Mars?

Don't be a jerk.

"ASTM G36 - 94(2013) Standard Practice for Evaluating Stress-Corrosion-Cracking Resistance of Metals and Alloys in a Boiling Magnesium Chloride Solution"

http://www.astm.org/Standards/G36.htm

John Byrnes wrote: Stay tuned. We (AF, ASCA and potential supplier) are meeting tomorrow.

Cool! Please keep us posted!

20 kN wrote: ... In reality, there are not many options for 316 which is why I am not even 1/4th as excited about the new UIAA standard as Byrnes is. Sure, it's great info in the standard, but it's unrealistic in the USA at the present time. I am not trying to be pessimistic, but one needs to step back and look at the facts. Half the developers in the USA dont even place 304. There is still SO much carbon steel being placed in crags ranging from Yosemite to the Gunks and Baffin Island down to EPC. Hell, nearly ALL the bolts in EPC are carbon steel, and that's one of the largest sport climbing meccas south of the border. I am sure that's going to be really fun when it comes time to replace all of those. Even if we could convince all developers to use 316, there just arnt easily available 316 anchors that are reasonably priced.

Yes, yes, yes. You've stated the problem perfectly. The goal is to create a non-profit organization, perhaps modeled after the ASCA, that can provide 316 expansion bolts to route developers at the same cost as plated-steel.

(The ASCA only provides bolts to people replacing old corroding bolts.)

mattm wrote: Jim - Do you know anything about how customs handles the shipment? How have others fared in the past? I ask having several poor experiences with carabiners coming in and a less than understanding "customs agent" calling them some other BS that had a higher tariff.

Bolts are technically "rock anchors" and come under miscellaneous metal parts which are duty free into the USA from Europe. The only hassle for our end is if the shipment is over €1.000.00 when we need to go through an export notification scheme which can involve inspection and costs us a fair amount of paperwork, under this value there´s not a lot of extra work involved.
Karabiners would probably be assessed as sporting goods and get a tarif of somewhere in the 2.5%-6% region, unless of course you import them from somewhere the Americans are having an argument with in which case they may impose a tit-for-tat penalty duty. Or an anti-dumping tarif like Europe has for titanium from China.

Jim, have you considered having an American distributor for your products?

DrRockso wrote:Jim, have you considered having an American distributor for your products?

Yes and no, the margins a distributor/retailer in the USA require are far higher than the shipping costs so the retail price would have to go up (and the shipping costs still have to be paid inside the US as well).
Our shipping costs don´t start dropping realistically until the amounts are huge so any distributor would have to commit to a considerable order to start making any effect.
For a customer wanting just a few bolts it would probably be better or at least more convenient but for the usual orders we deal with paying the shipping costs direct are better than adding another layer in the retail chain. You also lose the availability to have the bolts and paticularly lower-offs made up to your own specs as a distributor could not be expected to carry the full range.

Jim Titt wrote: Yes and no, the margins a distributor/retailer in the USA require are far higher than the shipping costs so the retail price would have to go up (and the shipping costs still have to be paid inside the US as well). Our shipping costs don´t start dropping realistically until the amounts are huge so any distributor would have to commit to a considerable order to start making any effect.

Define "huge". And what about contract pricing, where a "distributor" commits to a certain amount over, say, a 5-year period?

Jim Titt wrote: Yes and no, the margins a distributor/retailer in the USA require are far higher than the shipping costs so the retail price would have to go up (and the shipping costs still have to be paid inside the US as well). Our shipping costs don´t start dropping realistically until the amounts are huge so any distributor would have to commit to a considerable order to start making any effect. For a customer wanting just a few bolts it would probably be better or at least more convenient but for the usual orders we deal with paying the shipping costs direct are better than adding another layer in the retail chain. You also lose the availability to have the bolts and paticularly lower-offs made up to your own specs as a distributor could not be expected to carry the full range.

This would likely have to be a semi charitable system i.e. someone running it out of their garage with minimal margins. USPS Flat Rate would make shipping within the US "ok" and keep per item costs reasonable I'd hope (maybe something like .15 per bolt?) I suspect you could keep the 6mmx80mm 316L below $3.75 shipped in the US which is extremely competitive. Maybe even less considering the $3 per for a "small" order of 300 Jim noted. Heck - I've considered doing a large order, stacking on a Costco shelf in my garage and selling here in the past just to get better hardware out there!

mattm wrote: This would likely have to be a semi charitable system i.e. someone running it out of their garage with minimal margins. USPS Flat Rate would make shipping within the US "ok" and keep per item costs reasonable I'd hope (maybe something like .15 per bolt?) I suspect you could keep the 6mmx80mm 316L below $4 shipped in the US which is extremely competitive. Heck - I've considered doing a large order, stacking on a Costco shelf in my garage and selling here in the past just to get better hardware out there!

Seriously, I've been thinking of doing the same thing. Basically becoming the distributor without making any profit on it.

kennoyce wrote: Seriously, I've been thinking of doing the same thing. Basically becoming the distributor without making any profit on it.

My thought was offer basic staples. 60/30/10% : 6mmx80mm / 6mm x 100mm / 6mm x 150mm and then maybe two anchor options - 6mmx100mm 12mm Ramshorn inline and 6mmX100mm 10mm Ring inline to start.

That covers the VAST majority of US needs IMO. Perhaps you offer a request list for the larger 8mm bolts and when you hit a certain number, do a limited run on them too.

It's likely best to coordinate this through ASCA or AF or something because my only concern would be damn liability as in individual. Once you throw up a website and ordering option things get more complicated than the usual "yard sale" posting.

I think $4 (USD) retail for shorts and $4.50 for longs would be a good price point and reasonable compared to the $6.50 price tag on Waves.

Honestly most places are using quicklinks or steel biners over pigtails at this point, places like RRG would wear through those in no time, so I don't think those are a first priority to stock, just the 6mm twists in the 3 sizes (especially the 100mm size) would be great.

I prefer using the twists but Climb Tech has been so good to our LCO in the past I kind of feel bad using anyone else!

Jim have you done any testing in soft sandstone on the 6mm vs 8mm, I guess my question is would be is it stronger to have a long 6mm or a short 8mm?

Also what is your price on core drill bits, interested for 1/2" and and 5/8" (I'm assuming that's the outside diameter/new hole size?)

Well huge is relative! The break point where it is going to be cheaper to send a pallet over is about 7 or 8 heavy parcels from here (31.5kg) which is say 250kg of bolts or a bit over 4,000 of of our standard bolts. It´s hard to be exact because the pricing and insurance for single pallett delivery is a bit vague but around $700 would probably do it.
BUT to send a typical 20kg box (300 bolts)from here costs $76, to ship the same inside the USA from say boulder to NY (just places I picked at random) costs $67 with UPS ground and $77 with USPS if I worked their websites right. So basically the advantage is zero in that respect, the shipping is the same from wherever.
The price I calculated for the 300 bolts includes 20% discount which an order of that value would qualify for, the maximum we give is 30% for larger single orders or for example bolt funds who generally get this automatically, the Access Fund/ASCA grant recipients get this even though their individual orders will be much smaller.
Larger orders for resale are difficult, the distributor would have to compete with direct sales from here AND live with my reluctance to sell bolts cheaper, fundamentally 30% discount is the bottom line.
Selling more at a lower price means simply I work harder for less money, something I that doesn´t appeal to me much! As we also know the drive for lower pricing/higher margins tends to drive quality down, something causing many of the low-end manufacturers considerable problems at the moment with the use of sub-stamdard materials and not a pressure I would like to have. In my case at least bolt manufacture is only one part of my life, I do other things as well and climbers have to compete for my time with other people and mostly they seem to have more money than climbers as well! Personally I reckon a German manufactured, certified bolt delivered to an adress in the USA for under $3.00 is as good as it´s likely to get.

304/316 vs 304L/316L.. Sorry if this was covered already. L varient has less carbon and thus less corrosion potential?

UIAA report indicates that 316L should be standard for any outdoor application... what's the likely hood they come back and find even this isn't appropriate? Is the next step a 317L?

Also hoping to get some clarification on the magnesium parts of this... We actively are bolting within 10mi of the sea and are doing so in basalt which is very high in iron and magnesium and most bolts are exposed to rain. I believe the point was the magnesium chloride but I'd like to know if something like a basalt is also on the 'be very concerned' list.

Morgan - Basalt is one of the high-risk rocks for stainless-steel SCC, and being close to the coast is a second very strong contributing factor. You appear to be in a "titanium recommended" area.

http://rapbolting.com/titan-eterna-bolt

Just found these, cheaper than climbtech's leggacy bolts.

But still over twice as expensive as Waves... Still though it seems like the Eterna would be a good choice for your crag.