The Bolting End-Game

Who Dat wrote: I think we can reach an agreement.. Electrolye: An electrolyte is a substance that produces an electrically conducting solution when dissolved in a polar solvent, such as water. The dissolved electrolyte separates into cations and anions, which disperse uniformly through the solvent. Air, for all intensive purposes, has at least some quantifiable amount of water in it. That water is capable of carrying electrolytes. Of course "air" is composed of many different elements in varying concentrations depending on different things. A notable case is "marine air," which contains a high concentration of Na and Cl ions, as well as other elements. It's also important to keep in mind that pure H2O will not conduct electricity - it needs electrolytes in solution. This applies to the water in the air as well. Have we attained harmony?

NO AGREEMENT! NEVER!

But seriously the "water" that you find in air is not liquid water but water vapor. When the water that ultimately became the water vapor in the air evaporated it left and salts (electrolytes) that were dissolved in it behind. That is how distilling water works, and also why your tea kettle ends up with mineral (again ions/electrolyte) deposits on it. Air is 100% not an electrolyte, electrolyte solution, or electrical conductor. Furthermore the water that condenses out of air on a cold metal hanger will initially be distilled (also called de-ionized) water, again not a conductor. Thus electrolytes would need to already be present for said distilled water to conduct electricity.

Sheesh didn't any of you go to school? This is middle school shit.

John Byrnes wrote: I only heard about the bolt on Pump O'Rama. Maybe someone here has more info. But I don't think it really matters if the sleeve/wedge comes out at the same time. If the threads rust to the point that tension is released, that thing is coming out.

I think it was the 5th bolt on Pumporama that "pulled". It was a Fixe Triplex and it was drilled poorly so the hanger didn't sit flush. Over time the nut worked loose and came off with the hanger. It's the same kind of thing that has happened to some other bolts, like on Pump Action a couple years ago.

The only real bolt failure I know of for sure was when a bolt on Beer Run broke a couple years ago. But, it was a new SS 5 piece and Dave said he thought he over torqued it.

Other 5 pieces have "failed" by getting worked loose and then coming out of the sleeve. The first bolt on Pile Driver was notorious for this so I replaced it with a glue-in this spring.

Thanks for the hanger cleaning beta!

DrRockso wrote: Of course don't use a carbon steel hammer to place your wave bolts, you can buy the installation tool, use a SS hammer, dead blow hammer or a big rubber mallet. I usually just bore out the hole so they go in without hammering.

Or make one of these for your old hammer from a retired handball. The rubber is tough enough to survive a lot of abuse (photos taken after 5 routes' use) and dense enough to transfer the energy well.

Brian in SLC wrote: SLC-6 at VAFB is near mid-60's vintage. LC-40 at CCAFS similar. Both locations near salt water. Hmmm. Lot of fastener and corrosion data from those locations/situations... Interesting to note that when the VAB was built at the Cape, they drilled into limestone to anchor the building (over 4000 steel rods at 160 feet deep). They had to account for the galvanic current. Used over a million fasteners. When I used to visit those locations (spent weeks at a time on SLC-6, SLC-4E and LC-41)...I used to get a kick out of the stainless fasteners used in/on the urinals in the bathrooms. Now, that's a corrosive environment! Ha ha... I've always thought some of the info from MSFC/NASA with regard to fastener testing was somewhat pertinent to climbing anchors. Those old launch complexes have gobs of fasteners installed into concrete...all sittin' out in the weather...percolating away...

Brian, please speak/write in English.

I have no f-ing idea what a "SLC-6 at VAFB" is.

Jim Titt wrote: . In simple terms that means Hilti say products made of 304 and 316 are expected to have an economic lifetime of 50 years in a marine environment.

And yet we know they don't. At best 2 years in Thailand, 3 years in Cayman Brac, maybe 5 years in Portugal, etc. etc. etc.

So what are you trying to say here, Jim? Some comment on the glue or a comment on 304/316 in a marine environment?

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: John, where did the bolts break? I have had 5-piece Powers bolts break when I tried to remove them because the cone had rusted onto the bolt and would not turn. In this instance, the bolt breaks right down near the end where the threads for the cone are located when using a breaker bar to attempt to loosen it. Personally, I don't think this makes for a weak bolt especially if you consider shear strength to be the most important factor. It is just that plated steel will eventually rust.

What you say is all true. But my point is that if they are rusted to the point you can't turn them in only 8 years, then in 10 years, or 15 years the rusting process may have proceeded to the point the bolt rusts free of the wedge/sleeve. A far cry from a 50 year lifespan.

Remember that the rusting process is not normally linear: as the effective shaft diameter becomes smaller, rusting proceeds more rapidly and the strength of the bolt decreases as the diameter does.

John Byrnes wrote: Brian, please speak/write in English. I have no f-ing idea what a "SLC-6 at VAFB" is.

I think he's talking about the various super structures for the various NASA/Air Force launch complexes.

VAFB is Vandenberg
CCAFS is Cape Canaveral

The relevance being that both launch facilities are right on the ocean and involve a lot of fasteners.

Greg Kuchyt wrote: I think he's talking about the various super structures for the various NASA/Air Force launch complexes. VAFB is Vandenberg CCAFS is Cape Canaveral The relevance being that both launch facilities are right on the ocean and involve a lot of fasteners.

Okay. I'd like to hear more about them in order to evaluate the relevance to climbing bolts.

Since we were talking about climbing bolts I didn't think I needed to put that qualifier in my question. So let me do that now:

I don't know of any stainless climbing bolt placed in the U.S. that has lasted 50 years (1965). Anyone?

You haven't seen any last that long because their wasn't many (any?) placed that long ago. It seems like you're trying to prove a point here, but even if 0 stainless climbing bolts have lasted 50 years you have proved nothing. How many titanium climbing bolts have lasted 50 years?

John Byrnes wrote: And yet we know they don't. At best 2 years in Thailand, 3 years in Cayman Brac, maybe 5 years in Portugal, etc. etc. etc. So what are you trying to say here, Jim? Some comment on the glue or a comment on 304/316 in a marine environment?

The standard says 50 years for the glue.
The standard says 50 years for 304 in a marine environment.

If one is false then why should the other be true?

Using the ETA (European Technical Approval,note it is only applicable to Europe anyway) to justify claims of "guaranteed" life of 50 years in all parts of the world for the resin but ignoring that the same approval also covers the fastener shows either sloppy research or a determination to force through a position irrespective of the true facts.

It has also been claimed that under ETA only epoxy is permitted for use for anchors where failure would cause risk to life, Ten seconds with a search engine gives the ETA for a well known European vinylester anchor resin:- "The anchor is intended to be used for anchorages for which requirements for mechanical resistance and long term stability and safety in use in the sense of the Essential Requirements 1 and 4 of Council Directive 89/106/EEC shall be fulfilled and failure of anchorages made with these products would compromise the stability of the works, cause risk to human life and/or lead to considerable economic consequences."</em
The identical wording as for Hilti Hit 500.

Accurate research and logic (what you would call nit picking) pays dividends in the long run rather than wild claims and scare mongering, as you know personally innacurate claims such as titanium having a wear resistance 10 times that of stainless steel merely go to undermine the credibility of the products themselves and their promoters.
Regrettably the last ten years has seen the UIAA bogged down in an attempt to impose a completely unrealistic standard on a climbing community that does not want or need it, rather than adress the more immediate problems facing bolting generally such as use of unsuitable bolts, poor material and quality control by manufacturers attempting to compete in a tight market and the lack of finance for both re-equippers and first ascenscionists.

DrRockso wrote:You haven't seen any last that long because their wasn't many (any?) placed that long ago. It seems like you're trying to prove a point here, but even if 0 stainless climbing bolts have lasted 50 years you have proved nothing. How many titanium climbing bolts have lasted 50 years?

Sorry 'bout the long delay in responding. I've been doing other stuff.

Today, people are replacing rotten plated steel bolts with stainless bolts with the expectation that they will last 50 years, per the UIAA guidelines. However, since there are no stainless climbing bolts that have lasted 50 years in the U.S., the expectation is just that, an expectation or perhaps you could call it hope. That's my point.

Now, before everyone goes ballistic on me, let me say there's more to the story, and that's the environment the bolts are placed in. Using the UIAA terminology, a Class 1 environment is extremely corrosive, a Class 2 is moderate and Class 3 is mild.

A Class 1 qualified bolt is supposed to last 50 years in a Class 1 environment. We already know there are NO stainless bolts which meet this requirement. Right now, only titanium bolts are considered to be Class 1. Known Class 1 environments in the U.S. are Hawaii, Coastal California and Puerto Rico; but there could be more as years go by.

We are (perhaps) lucky that many climbing areas of the U.S. are Class 2. So a good 316 stainless bolt should last 50 years, but the proof won't be available for another decade or so. In my opinion, several areas that are now thought to be Class 2 will be re-classified to Class 1 as the years pass.

To answer your question about Ti bolts, no. Since Ti was first used in the late 90's, there is only about 16 years of data. However, since we KNOW that every stainless alloy does NOT last more than ~3 years in Thailand, for example, you don't have any choice but to use Ti in that type of environment.

But there's also laboratory data. I'll paraphrase. Submersion in boiling MgCl2 is a standard metallurgical test that closely parallels the environment found on Class 1 cliffs. Angele Sjong (see ThaitaniumProject.com video) boiled 316 stainless bolts and Ti bolts. The stainless cracks in a few hours. Ti was boiled for a month without being affected at all.

Jim Titt wrote: The standard says 50 years for the glue. The standard says 50 years for 304 in a marine environment. If one is false then why should the other be true? Using the ETA (European Technical Approval,note it is only applicable to Europe anyway) LOTS DELETED ascenscionists.

All I have to say is this:

theuiaa.org/upload_area/Saf…

Which you've probably already seen. Q.E.D.

"Chemical anchoring is "new" and even 20 years ago the idea you could go and pick up a few cartridges down the local hardware store was unheard of"

I've been in construction since 1989 and I've been able to walk into a hardware store and buy epoxy since at least 1990--I wouldn't call epoxy "new". I think Hilti RE 500 will last a long tim for sure, but obviously impossible to test.

I'm going with TI + Hilti RE 500 on the CA coast (especially in Greywacke sea stacks) but 304 SS inland or in the desert.

Anyway, where exactly does one get 316 SS bolts + hardware (that doesn't literally cost an arm and a leg) in the US??

Cool thread...

Jonathan Cunha wrote: Anyway, where exactly does one get 316 SS bolts + hardware (that doesn't literally cost an arm and a leg) in the US?? Cool thread...

There arnt many options. The Wavebolt is 316L. Hilti and a few other companies make 316 wedge bolts and glue-in threaded studs, but those options cost more than the Wavebolt even when you consider the cost of epoxy. The Petzl Longlife used to be made from 316, but the bolt is no longer being made. Fixe makes a 10 or 12mm (I forgot which) 316 bolt, but again, the Wavebolt is more economical in most cases.

In reality, there are not many options for 316 which is why I am not even 1/4th as excited about the new UIAA standard as Byrnes is. Sure, it's great info in the standard, but it's unrealistic in the USA at the present time. I am not trying to be pessimistic, but one needs to step back and look at the facts. Half the developers in the USA dont even place 304. There is still SO much carbon steel being placed in crags ranging from Yosemite to the Gunks and Baffin Island down to EPC. Hell, nearly ALL the bolts in EPC are carbon steel, and that's one of the largest sport climbing meccas south of the border. I am sure that's going to be really fun when it comes time to replace all of those.

Even if we could convince all developers to use 316, there just arnt easily available 316 anchors that are reasonably priced. For the most part, the Wavebolt is the only real 316 climbing anchor that is halfway reasonably priced. Further, many developers dont want to place glue in bolts. They want standard 1/2" Power Bolts, and the Power Bolt doesent come in 316.

Then of course we have to consider the hangers. Most hangers are NOT 316. The only two hangers that are 316 that I know of are the Fixe marine 316 hanger and the Petzl 3mm hanger (assuming they are still making it out of SS). So that's a problem as well. Before we can reasonably ask developers to use more 316, we need to get more 316 products on the market and get them mass produced so the cost is low enough for developers to consider using them.

I think that when the UIAA wrote that standard they dident fully consider the price of 316 in the USA. In the EU, 316 can be had for little more than 304, which is probably why the price difference between A2 and A4 on Jim's website in minimal. But in the USA, the price difference between 304 and 316 is quite substantial which is a problem.

AustriaAlpin make 316L hangers, we supply either these or the 304 ones depending on what the customer wants. A 10mm 316 wedge bolt and a 316 hanger costs roughly $4.50 -$5.00 delivered to the USA.
Raumer also make 316 hangers as do Climbing Technology and a number of other companies but I don´t deal with their products.
5-piece and sleeve type bolts are unpopular in the construction industry (and with climbers) so the choice is lower and the price higher.

316 glue-ins are made by just about everyone I´d guess. An order of 300 6mm twisted leg bolts 80mm long in 316L from us delivered to the continental USA would cost $2.99 each inc freight, 150 bolts would cost $3.20 etc.

John Byrnes wrote: Submersion in boiling MgCl2 is a standard metallurgical test that closely parallels the environment found on Class 1 cliffs.

Is that on Mars?

mattm wrote: Double check me but I'm pretty sure the Wavebolt made by Climb Tech is now 304SS - It was 316L when Issac was making them. That bummed me out as the 316L Wave was a decent value. Not so much now. A bulk buy from Bolt Products in 316L could get you bolts sub $4 I suspect. That's amazing. Yes, far more companies make 316 products in Europe - eg Raumer

Matt, I thought the same thing, but I contacted climb tech and was told that they are being made of 316L again. I told them that they need to put that information on their website and they took me up on it. Check it out:

climbtechgear.com/wave-bolt…

mattm wrote: Double check me but I'm pretty sure the Wavebolt made by Climb Tech is now 304SS - It was 316L when Issac was making them. That bummed me out as the 316L Wave was a decent value. Not so much now. A bulk buy from Bolt Products in 316L could get you bolts sub $4 I suspect. That's amazing. Yes, far more companies make 316 products in Europe - eg Raumer

I asked Chris Vinson about five months ago and he told me they are still 316L. I too heard they were 304 which is why I asked him. Also, FYI Issac still sells his Wavebolts, so if you want to be sure you can buy from him.

Jim Titt wrote:5-piece and sleeve type bolts are unpopular in the construction industry (and with climbers) so the choice is lower and the price higher. .

The 5-piece is one of the most common bolts used in the USA. I have no idea what the exact numbers are, but it's in the top three most common for sure. If we are talking about specific models, I would suspect the Power Bolt is actually the single most common bolt used in the United States. If we are talking about bolt types, wedge bolts are probably more popular, but not by a large margin.