Another Autoblock belay failure leading to serious hurt

folks ...

its raining up here ... and chances are the weather is not the best in other parts of north america (except the desert) right now as well

go call up a partner (or use some dead weight) and practice the autoblock release procedures under a LIVE load scenario ....

the majority of climbers have no business using the autoblock ... not because "autoblock is bad" ...

but simply because they are clueless on how to lower someone with one ... and use it properly

autoblocks take MORE technical skill to use than a regular ATC, not less

;)

Lowering on a reverso can be a pain. Usually have to give a good push up in the device for it to release. It is hard because the weight of the climber is locking it in. I always keep a hand on the brake when lowering and have always felt safe about it. I understand accidents happen though and I'm curious about exactly how you back this up.
Can anyone provide a sweet stick figure diagram or photos of how to back up a belay device when lowering? I think I understand but I like to see how it's used visually.

JoeGaribay wrote:Lowering on a reverso can be a pain. Usually have to give a good push up in the device for it to release. It is hard because the weight of the climber is locking it in. I always keep a hand on the brake when lowering and have always felt safe about it. I understand accidents happen though and I'm curious about exactly how you back this up. Can anyone provide a sweet stick figure diagram or photos of how to back up a belay device when lowering? I think I understand but I like to see how it's used visually.

Click on the link in the OP.

jeep gaskin wrote:sure it was the belayer's fault but you guys are missing the point that most people don't need an autobloc device and are better off with an atcxp or equivalent. adding a munter hitch isn't a back-up, it's the whole enchilada.you don't need a belay device at all.

I second this. It seems that belaying seconds in guide mode has become the norm. I see no reason for this, or any real advantage, unless you're belaying two followers simultaneously.
It leads to all sorts of complications and awkward positions when belaying, when a simple ATC used in standard (non-auto-locking) mode would be much simpler and therefore safer: only one thing to worry about: keep your hand on the brake at all times.
KISS.

Eric and Lucie wrote: I second this. It seems that belaying seconds in guide mode has become the norm. I see no reason for this, or any real advantage, unless you're belaying two followers simultaneously. It leads to all sorts of complications and awkward positions when belaying, when a simple ATC used in standard (non-auto-locking) mode would be much simpler and therefore safer: only one thing to worry about: keep your hand on the brake at all times. KISS.

rock fall ...

when belay ledges look like this ....

Eric and Lucie wrote: I second this. It seems that belaying seconds in guide mode has become the norm. I see no reason for this, or any real advantage, unless you're belaying two followers simultaneously. It leads to all sorts of complications and awkward positions when belaying, when a simple ATC used in standard (non-auto-locking) mode would be much simpler and therefore safer: only one thing to worry about: keep your hand on the brake at all times. KISS.

oh here are just a few. Also simpler does not always mean safer even though I find the the guide mode way simpler.

-less stress on the anchor.
-easier to rescue follower if they become injured
-if belayer is injured follower is not going to drop

Also the tips in here for lowering a follower a tiny bit are great.

https://vimeo.com/126266834

I'll agree it has it's place, but seriously, "less stress on the anchor"?

If your anchor can't handle the stress of the second taking a fall, you've got a seriously messed up anchor.

"Easier to rescue a follower". Debatable.

"Injured Belayer" Maybe, but a seriously rare occurrence.

The worst part about guide mode type belays are the typically crappy belays you get; alternating between yarding you up the climb and giant loops of slack. Like I said, they have their place, but more often than they end up being annoying at the least and at the worst you get results like the OP.

bearbreeder wrote:folks ... its raining up here ... and chances are the weather is not the best in other parts of north america (except the desert) right now as well go call up a partner (or use some dead weight) and practice the autoblock release procedures under a LIVE load scenario .... the majority of climbers have no business using the autoblock ... not because "autoblock is bad" ... but simply because they are clueless on how to lower someone with one ... and use it properly autoblocks take MORE technical skill to use than a regular ATC, not less ;)

Really though, about a minute of playing with the setup and it becomes pretty straightforward. I use the munter (as someone said above, the munter isn't really a "backup" belay, it IS the belay when the autoblock is released) and my nut tool as a lever to release the device.

In all fairness to the party involved, it's only because I knew some people involved in an identical accident that I was aware of how dangerous this operation is without another belay method.

csproul wrote:I'll agree it has it's place, but seriously, "less stress on the anchor"? If your anchor can't handle the stress of the second taking a fall, you've got a seriously messed up anchor. "Easier to rescue a follower". Debatable. "Injured Belayer" Maybe, but a seriously rare occurrence. The worst part about guide mode type belays are the typically crappy belays you get; alternating between yarding you up the climb and giant loops of slack. Like I said, they have their place, but more often than they end up being annoying at the least and at the worst you get results like the OP.

I'm not advocating for bad anchors but he saw no reasons, and I was presenting some.

Also how is having to escape your belay debatably easier?

Shame the people you climb with give you crappy belays.

Check out the DMM pivot which has a better design for lowering.

dmmclimbing.com/dmm-pivot-b…

NorCalNomad wrote: I'm not advocating for bad anchors but he saw no reasons, and I was presenting some. Also how is having to escape your belay debatably easier? Shame the people you climb with give you crappy belays.

This has been an observation/opinion that has developed since these devices have come out, being belayed by many many belayers. Usually the belayers are completely oblivious of how poor their belay is. It happens much more frequently when auto-blocked devices are used from above than when people are using a normal belay (redirected or directly off the harness). I'm clearly not the only one who feels the same. You can find similar opinions stated by many seasoned and experienced climbers.

You didn't say "escape a belay", you said "easier to rescue follower if they become injured". If rescuing your second involves lowering them it is certainly easier to do if they are not in guide-mode.

I'm not saying you can't get a good belay with one, of course you can. But IME it is less likely. These devices are basically marketed and sold as an excuse to do other things while you belay and people often use that as one of their purported benefits. It is somewhat true, they do make it easier to eat/drink/take pictures while belaying, but no matter how you cut it, doing those other things will take focus away from what you should be doing; belaying

I do sometimes use them. I am willing to deal with some of their shortcomings in certain situations. All I'm saying is that I think they are highly overrated in most situations and that your claimed reasons might be valid, but are pretty low on the things I consider important in deciding whether to use them or not.

NorCalNomad wrote: I'm not advocating for bad anchors but he saw no reasons, and I was presenting some.

I said I saw no reason for it to have become the standard approach, not that I saw no reason to ever use it.

Primary reason I use it is for speed and convenience on multipitch, especially when belaying 2 followers. Hands free to do rope manglement, drink water, transfer gear to the shelf on the anchor, etc.

I'm gunna die

csproul wrote: It happens much more frequently when auto-blocked devices are used from above than when people are using a normal belay (redirected or directly off the harness). I'm clearly not the only one who feels the same.

I guess I'm old school too. I've never had a problem going off my harnes with an ATC and redirecting through the anchor(when appropriate). What else do I need to do besides belay my partner anyway? I'm not too bright, so the simpler the better.

I have been dropped two times!!!!!

One time by a "GUIDE" using one of those in that manner.

If you climb with me and use one of those, and they are great for a party of three when two follow at the same time, but you must prove to me that you know how to rig it properly by lowering me when im 15 feet of of the deck.

Guy Keesee wrote:but you must prove to me that you know how to rig it properly by lowering me when im 15 feet of of the deck.

The technical term for that is "destructive testing."

Rob.calm

Guy Keesee wrote:If you climb with me and use one of those, and they are great for a party of three when two follow at the same time, but you must prove to me that you know how to rig it properly by lowering me when im 15 feet of of the deck.

That seems like a terrible idea. A fall from 15 feet can result in serious injury, or even death if you fall badly. Why would you risk a season ending injury or worse asking someone to perform a skill you don't believe they can do safely?

If you don't trust your partner to lower you safely, you can A. not ask them to lower you (I can't think of any instances when being lowered while following a climb was absolutely necessary), B. ask them to belay using a different technique/device, C. climb with a different partner who you do trust. Or, a radical suggestion, you could teach them how to use the device to lower safely.

Guy Keesee wrote:... but you must prove to me that you know how to rig it properly by lowering me when im 15 feet of of the deck.

15 feet is good but rig an independent backup like a belay from not too far above - don't want too much rope stretch in that backup. It can be an eye opener.

I'm glad to see BD essentially saying to plan to transfer to a different belay mechanism.

folks ... do you find the need to lower folks all the time on multipitch??? ... if so i suggest that you either climb with competent folks, or if they are competent use a belay system that isnt the autoblock for that particular pitch

when using the autoblock lowering anything more than say a foot or two should be an exceptionally RARE case .... limited to rescues, etc ...

if you use the autoblock for a pitch that you know may require the second to downclimb .. youve screwed up as you already lead the pitch and should know not to use it (same as failing to protect traverses)

its actually quite easy to give slack safely with the atc guide in autoblock if the rope is unweighted ... ive posted how to do that before

and conversely if all the climber needs is a few inches or even feet of "lowering" when the rope is weighed its quite easy to do this as well with the ATC guide

anyone who practices "lowering" with an ATC guide will already know this and how to do these things fairly quickly and safely

if you dont then i suggest actually going out and PRACTICE these things with that ATC guide

now lets see who here actually practices lowering with a mammut alpine smart ... which is MUCH more limited than the ATC guide with its "lowering" options

if you dont know these techniques and their limitations .... just STOP using the autoblock modes in these devices till you practice em

thats all there is to it

BB: "when using the autoblock lowering anything more than say a foot or two should be an exceptionally RARE case .... limited to rescues, etc ... "

... Or maybe my buddy was half way up the first pitch and then remembered he forgot to grab his water bottle?