Gunks Rock Fall

Gunks Jesse wrote: If you double rope rappel from the GT there is a lot of loose stone there and I've seen softball size chunks of rock fly off the ledge when the rope pulls through the rings. We ALWAYS hug the cliff when we pull ropes. Anything I'm missing on how to avoid this? rgold? gunkiemike?

The only thing you can do is to try to clear a path on the ledge so there won't be anything for the ropes to drag over the lip. In a situation in which you are placing your own anchors at a choss-filled ledge, it might be worth making the anchor rigging long enough so that the rap rings are at the lip and so clear of debris. But this makes starting the rappel trickier and in any case isn't going to be a happy solution when the anchor is bolted and on the back wall of the ledge.

If the rappel in question (off Beginner's Delight?) really has a rockfall problem that can't be fixed by moving a few stones, then the obvious solution is not to use that rappel, eh?

rgold wrote: The only thing you can do is to try to clear a path on the ledge so there won't be anything for the ropes to drag over the lip. In a situation in which you are placing your own anchors at a choss-filled ledge, it might be worth making the anchor rigging long enough so that the rap rings are at the lip and so clear of debris. But this makes starting the rappel trickier and in any case isn't going to be a happy solution when the anchor is bolted and on the back wall of the ledge. If the rappel in question (off Beginner's Delight?) really has a rockfall problem that can't be fixed by moving a few stones, then the obvious solution is not to use that rappel, eh?

He might be referring to the new bolted station on the GT Ledge at Minty. The rope really slaps the ground hard when it's retrieved there, and climbers on Snookys are in the line of fire.

Nope, last time I was on Minty we had to rap from the chains over top of Le Teton. I mistakenly called it Madame G, but definitely it was the rap on Last Will Be First (just left of high e area). One of the scariest rope pulls I can remember. Went up High E in the dark on a Friday night and finished the rap. Pulled the rope and a few pebbles came down but a softball sized chunk hit just a few feet from my partner. Careful on that rap!

rock fall happens when you climb OUTDOORS if you learn to climb trad this way youre used to it and can manage the dangers/hazards because youve seen them before as you learned. This is ging to happen more as people leave the gym and go climbing in the real world just beacuse you can pull 5.10 on plastic doesn't make you safe when you go to The Gunks going from the gym to sport or some topdown crag only makes it worse since any danger of the natural world is already gone. People think that crowbaring the whole cliff of anything not perfectly solid and then putting in bolts makes everything safe -maybe at that cliff but when people who are used to that cliff go to The Gunks and then theyve never seen loose rock before and don't know how to climb carefully around it and that makes them more dangerous for everybody.

Glad evrybody is okay but this should be a wakeup call for people who can climb hard but dont have any real experience.

bolting all the raps makes everyone even more complassent =oh just walk around until you find some bolts and go down wherever it bring us no thinking required!!!

Good one nick! You know how angerous that is but I can see some guy from the gym coming up there with his girlfriend and being like "no dont worry babe if it wasnt solid somebody would have crowbared it off by now because they make there cliffs safe for everybody and then theres a major accident for him or somebody on the ground is dead. WAKEUP CALL!!!! Somebody at the gym told me if I always wear my helmet when I leave the car Ill be safe LOL!!!!

NESteve wrote:rock fall happens when you climb OUTDOORS if you learn to climb trad this way youre used to it and can manage the dangers/hazards because youve seen them before as you learned. This is ging to happen more as people leave the gym and go climbing in the real world just beacuse you can pull 5.10 on plastic doesn't make you safe when you go to The Gunks going from the gym to sport or some topdown crag only makes it worse since any danger of the natural world is already gone. People think that crowbaring the whole cliff of anything not perfectly solid and then putting in bolts makes everything safe -maybe at that cliff but when people who are used to that cliff go to The Gunks and then theyve never seen loose rock before and don't know how to climb carefully around it and that makes them more dangerous for everybody. Glad evrybody is okay but this should be a wakeup call for people who can climb hard but dont have any real experience.

NESteve wrote:bolting all the raps makes everyone even more complassent =oh just walk around until you find some bolts and go down wherever it bring us no thinking required!!!

NESteve wrote:Good one nick! You know how angerous that is but I can see some guy from the gym coming up there with his girlfriend and being like "no dont worry babe if it wasnt solid somebody would have crowbared it off by now because they make there cliffs safe for everybody and then theres a major accident for him or somebody on the ground is dead. WAKEUP CALL!!!! Somebody at the gym told me if I always wear my helmet when I leave the car Ill be safe LOL!!!!

Whoa. I sure hope your climbing instructor had more luck than the sad soul who was stuck teaching you grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Yeesh.

I, too, am relieved that no one was hurt.

:)

LUC wrote: "I often spend time, when belaying my second or waiting to rap, moving rocks and pebbles away from the edge to more stable areas less prone to drainage or tumbling back down."

Thanks for that. It's a very good thing to do, and the ledges would be safer if everyone did their part. On Columbus day weekend I moved about 200 one-to-two-inch sized rocks from near the lip of the belay of the first pitch of Moonlight.

Immediately after I led up to the tree on Keep On Struttin' and noticed many loose blocks down there also.

NESteve wrote:rock fall happens when you climb OUTDOORS if you learn to climb trad this way youre used to it and can manage the dangers/hazards because youve seen them before as you learned. This is ging to happen more as people leave the gym and go climbing in the real world just beacuse you can pull 5.10 on plastic doesn't make you safe when you go to The Gunks going from the gym to sport or some topdown crag only makes it worse since any danger of the natural world is already gone. People think that crowbaring the whole cliff of anything not perfectly solid and then putting in bolts makes everything safe -maybe at that cliff but when people who are used to that cliff go to The Gunks and then theyve never seen loose rock before and don't know how to climb carefully around it and that makes them more dangerous for everybody. Glad evrybody is okay but this should be a wakeup call for people who can climb hard but dont have any real experience.

I suppose this is directed at me and I think my replying to NESteve is wasting my time, however, I can't totally let it slide.

NESteve, for the record, I'm not a "gym" climber and started placing gear and leading in the Adirondacks when I was a teenager. I've cleaned and climbed at many new cliffs, and have spent a good deal of time on bigger cliffs and in the mountains and alpine environment, dealing with and being aware of loose rock. Experience doesn't make us immune to the pitfalls of climbing, the accrual of it guarantees nothing.

In a way, you have a point, it was a good wake-up call. I think familiarity breeds comfort and potentially complacency. The insinuation that I have no "real experience" and therefore ignorantly knocked the block off is wrong.

It seems like you climb in the Adirondacks frequently, see you out there.

Not talking to you Mark you sound like you got youre shit together but you cant argue that people coming out of the climbing gym with no clue execpt how to pull real hard are going to cause this to happen all the time. They don't have any learning to back up the pulling nobody taught them how to place gear so there shit is falling out behind them and there first pieces pull beacuae they dont have a directional and they only have sport draws -I've seen it!!!! guys cant get down because the trapsapp doesn't have GPS coordinates and they only have 1 rope and can only belay with a grigri becaus ethats what they learned from the gym. Maybe if climbing was harder to find and not so "COOL" we'd all be safer and people wouldnt be standing in rockfall areas because someone at the gym told them if they were a helmet theyd be a safe climber!!!

Maybe Ill see ya in the Dax -cant wait for ICE SEASON!!!!

Good thing no one was sitting down belaying at the base...

NESteve wrote: you cant argue that people coming out of the climbing gym with no clue execpt how to pull real hard are going to cause this to happen

Hey Steve,
I don't disagree with the core of what you are saying, and at some point people do need some instruction - people aren't born climbers. And you address that when you say they buy gear and come on out and climb and think it will be ok. I've seen it too.

I haven't climbed in a gym for years and I'm not a particularly gifted climber when it comes to ability to climb hard grades, but I've spent a lot of time on real rock and largely know the risks and how to mitigate. I also have a lot of respect for people who are willing to share constructive criticism and suggest worthwhile techniques that add to the communities knowledge.

But what is your background? All we know of you from your two months worth of posting is that you don't like gym climbers...

In the vein of suggesting worthwhile techniques.

Every now and then you can't help knocking off a rock, but this should be an extremely rare occurrence. In 58 years of climbing I've accidentally knocked off two rocks. (This is partially because I haven't climbed much in the Canadian Rockies outside of the Bugaboos, but I have made up for this by doing some horrendously loose routes in the Wind Rivers.) In retrospect I can't see how I could have prevented either of those two rockfalls, but that still leaves an enormous amount of rockfall-free involvement.

Here are some principles to consider for the Gunks.

• You have to be absolutely and consciously committed to not sending any rocks down. This can't be some vague background priority; it has to be job 1 and constantly on your mind. There are people below and your actions might kill someone.
• Don't stop climbing when you get to a ledge. By this I mean place your feet as carefully as if you were still on the pitch and think especially about what is going to happen when you pick your trailing foot up, as this is the one that is most likely to dislodge something.
• A rope piled on a ledge will send showers of rocks down if it isn't handled with great care. Don't ever pull a rope across or along a ledge without constant eagle-eyed attention to what it is doing to loose stuff---and take it real slow. But in general, it is going to be much safer to coil your rope and transport it rather than dragging it, even for a short distance.

I can tell you that my experience doesnt come from the gym or sprt cliff. Started hiking and backpacking and found rock climbing in college and then ice the next winter. Learned from some old guys who started when trad was all thee was and they just called it CLIMBING. taught me alot about adventure and being commmited. Starting to think people dont lioke me speeking my mind around here LOL!!!! wHatever I got thick skin!!!! with the lowest common denominator calling the shots Im not surpprised!!!

Where does your vast experience come from?

Was just at the Gunks this weekend and while racking up for Frog's Head, someone warned us about a big block on Maria. Hoping this makes its way down when no one is around - this will cause some serious issues and harm if it falls during a popular day. I think this is similar in size to the block that fell from Red Pillar.

Had an entire belay ledge fall out from under us on my first trip to Rogers rock. it went the distance to the lake makeing a huge splash. does that count as droppig a rock?

kswissto wrote:Was just at the Gunks this weekend and while racking up for Frog's Head, someone warned us about a big block on Maria. Hoping this makes its way down when no one is around - this will cause some serious issues and harm if it falls during a popular day. I think this is similar in size to the block that fell from Red Pillar.

Was it Les that warned you?? haha. That block shook loose when we were on the route a couple weeks ago (It looked attached before all the dirt behind it shifted).

The terrifying thing I'm seeing in that picture is the GEAR placed under it - that wasn't there before, the slightest tug and that thing is bouncing all the way down the Maria corner

DEF wrote: Was it Les that warned you?? haha. That block shook loose when we were on the route a couple weeks ago (It looked attached before all the dirt behind it shifted). The terrifying thing I'm seeing in that picture is the GEAR placed under it - that wasn't there before, the slightest tug and that thing is bouncing all the way down the Maria corner

Nope, not Les, someone else TRing Son of Easy O that day - talked to Les about it later though. I agree about the gear - super sketchy. I honestly can't believe the rock is still there. And I'm not looking forward to a post about this block in a week when it falls ...