Trad belay vs. Sport belay, single pitch

So, GABE, I am usually pretty tight to the cliff even with sport, as I'm lighter than my climbers. Our close in climbing is columnar basalt, so sometimes the belay is even on top of a short column, so I don't get fileted!

ACCENT, thanks for the reminder about the top piece, also. From sport, I already understand the climber tramming sometimes to remove draws when lowering, and to keep an eye out for what might pop when a piece is removed, etc.

GUY, you missed the bit in here that my partner is SAR. Hence ability to escape a belay. : ) But, that is also what I can use if I need to anchor myself down for a much heavier climber, and still move around. Need something that works with not so close rocks.

A QUESTION, though. If I do decide I need to be anchored for a heavy climber, should I consider doing so into the base of the cliff (essentially treating single pitch like multi), or should that always go behind me? I will add that I have a big gun harness, with two belay loops, have already seen the multiple debates about lighter belayers, and don't need all that reiterated. Like Em Cos, though, I do find it pretty entertaining that it's always from the point of view of the heavy guy, and sorta assumes we lighter belayers are clueless, even though we're the ones who have the experience, in this case! Lol!

Edit to add: "Take!" on lead, made me laugh! Might as well yell, "yank me off!"

This is important: go look at the latest issue of Rock and Ice and read the account of the young woman mis-protecting a trad line who subsequently falls to her death. My own bias is that anyone looking to lead trad do two things. First, take a private lesson from one of the pros and be very happy to pay for a full day or two of their time. Second, follow a large number (20 or so) of trad climbs led by a competent climber, and not just someone who has hung out in the gym. Inspect the placements, look for directionality and integration with the other gear. Play around on the ground with placement options and play around with setting a trad belay that will keep both you and your partner alive. Trad is as different from sport as the sun is different from the moon. Don't putz around.

I am a guy but I am pretty lightweight; < 130#. I hardly lead belay anyone over 155# these days. TR belay is OK. Sometimes one has no choice but for the past 5 years or so, I have managed to avoid belaying heavyweights. At the same time, my lightest partner is about 100# and she is an excellent belayer (and climber).
I am curious if anyone has tried rocks in a backpack and wearing the backpack while belaying. An alternative to being tied down, perhaps.

Don't listen to that idiot about escaping the belay; it's a very useful skill to have. Also, if it's possible to anchor to something in front of you, it will often be much more ergonomic and comfortable (especially if you are a guy). It just happens that most of the time the anchor is something like a tree, which is usually behind you. YMMV

Guy Keesee wrote:""3) Escape the belay????????????? one of the most useless things ever. IMHO.

What? Guy, why do you think escaping a belay is useless skill to have? I would agree that most climbers will never have to go through this process but isn't it good for climber to be self reliant in shitty situations?
What would you do if your climber got hurt and became unconscious more than the half way point of the rope?

3) Also residing on my harness is a length of static rope and companion prussik to anchor myself, if warranted. Generally, I don't at all, so I can move around, but I know how, and how to tie off and escape a belay, if needed.

6) So, I'm thinking I need to play with gear more than I have, so I can judge placements and start thinking anchors. Need to learn rope commands.

3.) Just tie in to the rope with a clove hitch to your anchor. This can be easily adjusted for length, is faster for multi-pitch, and doesn't require any "single use" gear. For belaying your leader you now also have a dynamic anchor tie in.

6.) That is a great idea, walk around and do as many placements as possible, sweat the details. Sometimes flipping the orientation of a cam makes the difference between uneven lobes and a great placement, learn to look for that. Play around with nuts in a variety of shapes and rock types if possible. Get creatives, sometimes there is a perfect constriction that requires slotting a piece in a wider crack from below, or the side. Once you are feeling confident in your skills try aid climbing a pitch on top rope and weighting all your placements.

A couple of my own notes, for multi-pitch climbs I try to make sure that everything I leave the ground with serves multiple purposes and if there is a way I can eliminate an item (to carry a wider variety of pro/sizes) I will carry more pro. Read up on rescue techniques, but then figure out how to implement these systems with the gear you'll already be leading on. You're going to be carrying more gear on most multi-pitch routes than you would single pitch cragging, in addition to approach shoes and water in many cases, it all adds up.

Look for leads that are not only a low grade for you, but also are low angle. It's best to practice one handed, but you'll inevitably get in some shenanigans with gear at the start and having no hands stances is nice. Look for unique ways to use different size pro also. Say you're climbing a hand crack, look for smaller gear in cracks off to the side, or horizontals mid route. On longer pitches that tend to be one size it's a great way to conserve gear.

A lot of great advice here ... but just a few other thoughts:

Anchoring:

If you feel the need to anchor yourself at the base due to weight differences, you'll want to figure out where a fall might happen and consider how the rope will be pulled and it's effect on the pieces, and ultimately the direction of the pull of the rope on you.

Where:

As folks are saying, near the wall under the route is usually the safest. But you have to give consideration to the possibility of rock and gear fall. Sometimes being a bit to one side or the other might be better.

Remember, there are sometimes options to set a first directional piece if you don't think your belay stance is optimum to avoid zippering pieces. I used to always do this on Snooky's in the Gunks ... as the crux is the opening 20 ft and the first 3 -4 pieces are small stoppers. As others are saying, so much depends on the characteristics of the route. First time I tried Enduro Man P1 ... crux is maybe 10-12 ft off the deck and pro is tiny stopper and RPs ... so my belayer was standing right against the wall as close to the route as possible ... I came off a few feet above the crux ... and landed on his shoulder. So yeah, sometimes a directional even for a belay at the base can be a good option.

• **One of the most important considerations about where to trad belay from is -- does your position allow for you to see your leader and in relative comfort. Typically, a trad pitch is going to take longer to lead than a sport pitch. You want to be able to watch the lead climber constantly -- so try to avoid belay stances where you know you'll be uncomfortable, get neck cramps or anything that is going to distract you from watching the leader at all times. Because some falls are announced ... and others aren't.

Experience and Patience:

The very best trad belayer is someone who climbs as well or better than you, understands gear placements as well or better than you and has lead the route before and knows the gear or reg beta in case you get in trouble. (Also is experienced at High Angle Rescue and is an EMT!)

But we rarely get that ideal belayer. At minimum, a trad belayer should understand how gear works and can figure out what's going to happen to the rope and the pieces in the event of a fall. And can remain focused and patient at all times. Which is very important on trad routes, as sometimes leader can get into situations they need to think through, or find themselves having a hard time getting a piece in. The trad belayer has to stay focused on the lead climber through all this stuff and not get impatient and criticize. (It's amazing how often I've actually seen that happen.)

Communication:

As you said, this is super important. Even on a short single pitch climb with no overhangs, no wind, no noise issues ... before the lead sets off, you want to talk over the route with the lead climber ... talk about where there might be a fall or there might be a route-finding issue or any other potential issues the route might pose.

And absolutely talk over and get clear what the lead climber is going to do once they reach the stance/belay/top.

And it's always the job of any belayer to check the leader's tie-in knot. With a trad climb, as a belayer, I like to do a quick check list with the lead climber before he/she sets out. Check knots, check how the belay is set, check anchor if one is being used, check the gear, check the harness, check the attitude!

How To Gain Experience on Trad Climbs:

Others have already mentioned getting some instruction from a very experienced climber or even guide/instructor ... and/or follow/2nd said experienced climber on a bunch of trad routes. And playing with gear in placements at the base of a cliff -- so you can just get familiar with the pieces and how they work ... all excellent ideas.

• **And the poster before me mentioned briefly the idea of "lead" climbing on a top-rope. I think this is one of the best ways a new trad climber can learn gear placements while climbing. I call it "mock leading."

The very best way to do this is to find an nice experienced trad climber who will lend their time to helping you gain experience -- and will set-up some mock leads for you and your sons.

This requires three people. A lead climber who is looking to learn how to climb trad and place gear (you/your son). Another climber who is looking for the same experience (you/your son). A climber with solid trad experience who's happy to mentor and teach.

Find a route that can be TRed without leading it -- or have the experienced climber lead it and then set a TR on it.

After the TR is set, have the lead climber prepare to "lead" the route. He/she will tie into another rope just like he/she would to lead -- take the gear -- and then go "lead" -- make placements and clip into the trailing rope just like you would on lead. And the "belayer" handles the trail rope as if it is the one and only rope.

The experienced climber will belay the "leader" on TR.

The lead climber and belayer go through the whole climb just as they would if there was no TR there. Once the lead climber finishes the route, he/she gets lowered and then the experienced climber evaluates each placement. Is it bomber? Did it need an opposing piece? Was there a better placement just a couple feet higher? Was that the best piece for that placement? Was a piece set in the wrong direction to hold the direction of rope pull? Did a piece need a longer runner? Same for the belayer. Did the belayer lose focus? Did the belayer pay out rope quickly for clipping?

Every time I've done this with new trad climbers, it's amazing how they quickly forget the TR is there. I've seen "lead" climbers get gripped during a mock lead. Get mad at their belayer for not paying out rope quickly enough for a desperate clip.

Using this system, it's also possible to create short mock lead falls --- or just let the leader weight pieces to see how they respond.

I've always done this with the newer climbs I agreed to mentor -- and it made them (and me!) a lot more confident when I took them on real lead climbs later.

Double Rope Climbing:

Doesn't seem like you'll be doing this for a while. But it's a whole art unto itself.

matt c. wrote: What? Guy, why do you think escaping a belay is useless skill to have? I would agree that most climbers will never have to go through this process but isn't it good for climber to be self reliant in shitty situations? What would you do if your climber got hurt and became unconscious more than the half way point of the rope?

I agree with Guy 100% escape the belay..how you gonna descend w/o a rope ?..You gonna leave an unconscious person hanging ?

The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in 35+ yrs of climbing..the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

Johnny,
Please tell me the produce you will follow if:

'What would you do if your climber got hurt and became unconscious more than the half way point of the rope?'

In my experience (not 35 years worth), escaping the belay is the fist step in un-mucking this situation such as this. What would you do? I am all ears.

john strand wrote: ..the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

I am confused by this statement. Prussiking up a free hanging rope is a pain in the ass and very laborious but technically very simple.

Well your kinda fucked, what your thought process? you gonna solo up or down for help? doubtfull,,your gonna "ascend the rope to help the leader ? probably not

I have never, not once, untied from the lead rope in any situation,never.

john strand wrote: I agree with Guy 100% escape the belay..how you gonna descend w/o a rope ?..You gonna leave an unconscious person hanging ? The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in 35+ yrs of climbing..the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

Hey, John, before everyone on here jumps all over you, I'm not talking about multi, but single pitch. With that in mind, would you please clarify? Thanks, much!

Oops, not fast enough. Sorry!

Tat what I love about MP...theory for belaying and rappelling and..and..and....theory vs reality ? I'll take reality every time

john strand wrote:Well your kinda fucked

hahaha Yes. You are fucked. But is much better to be fucked with a plan and skills to become unfucked.

john strand wrote:Tat what I love about MP...theory for belaying and rappelling and..and..and....theory vs reality ? I'll take reality every time

So, I would actually enjoy hearing what you have to say, email if prefer. I'm pretty sure I'm not following you very well. : )

S. Neoh wrote:I am a guy but I am pretty lightweight; < 130#. I hardly lead belay anyone over 155# these days. TR belay is OK. Sometimes one has no choice but for the past 5 years or so, I have managed to avoid belaying heavyweights. At the same time, my lightest partner is about 100# and she is an excellent belayer (and climber). I am curious if anyone has tried rocks in a backpack and wearing the backpack while belaying. An alternative to being tied down, perhaps.

There are at least 4 threads on light belayer/heavier climber in here, and yes, the rocks in something for an anchor is in there, as well as snarky weight comments, arguments about body fat percentages, the usual! Play around with this, though, and figure out what works for you. IMO, your judgement is what counts on this one. I'm sitting right under 130 now. Heaviest I've belayed on top rope (in a gym-lots of different weights to work with) was probably 190, maybe even more (older overweight guy, so I didn't ask). That was a lot of work. 160-70ish guys on lead, with some good falls, just fine. Like you, I will be very cautious with anyone really heavy, if I belay them at all.

A gymnast brought in his 50 pound weight vest one night for everyone to play with (gym). Based on that, I don't think you will want to wear the weight!

john strand wrote:Except on multi pitch !

Hey John, Do you wear a helmet when you climb on Cannon? Just genuinely curious. I rarely wear a lid, but Cannon to me has always been one of those places I always do.

Old lady H wrote: I'm sitting right under 130 now. Heaviest I've belayed on top rope (in a gym-lots of different weights to work with) was probably 190, maybe even more (older overweight guy, so I didn't ask). That was a lot of work. 160-70ish guys on lead, with some good falls, just fine. A gymnast brought in his 50 pound weight vest one night for everyone to play with (gym). Based on that, I don't think you will want to wear the weight!

You should not have much problem then! I have TR belayed 220# guys. I just take out my Gri Gri and they can hang dog away if they wish. If you lead belay 170# guys without much trouble then you should be all set. Lower that limit to 150# and you won't even have to worry about anchoring, weights around your waist, or a backpack with rocks in it. Oh, I was only thinking about adding 25# max to the back pack. I can tell you from personal experience, catching a leader fall of someone weighing 145# is a world of difference from catching someone at 125# when I clock in at 128#. That twenty pounds make quite a bit of difference.
On a side note, how would one escape a belay all by oneself when talking about single pitch climb, if you are not anchored in correctly in the first place?
Huh.

S. Neoh wrote:On a side note, how would one escape a belay all by oneself when talking about single pitch climb, if you are not anchored in correctly in the first place? Huh.

There's no need to escape the belay, unless the pitch is longer than half your rope length. If it is, tie off the belay device and climb up until your partner reaches the ground. What happens next is highly situational, depending on your or your partner's ability, or lack thereof, to down climb.

S. Neoh wrote: You should not have much problem then! I have TR belayed 220# guys. I just take out my Gri Gri and they can hang dog away if they wish. If you lead belay 170# guys without much trouble then you should be all set. Lower that limit to 150# and you won't even have to worry about anchoring, weights around your waist, or a backpack with rocks in it. Oh, I was only thinking about adding 25# max to the back pack. I can tell you from personal experience, catching a leader fall of someone weighing 145# is a world of difference from catching someone at 125# when I clock in at 128#. That twenty pounds make quite a bit of difference. On a side note, how would one escape a belay all by oneself when talking about single pitch climb, if you are not anchored in correctly in the first place? Huh.

You and I could simulrap!

I've thought a bit about the last, actually. Unless all/most of your climbing rope is out, you should have at least something to work with. And, even then, presumably there is something in the wall nearby. Tie off the belay, then start working out an anchor. It's pretty interesting, to me at least, learning what you can do with very, very little.

Look, "Death on Elephants Perch" (thread is in accidents) is the accident I've referenced a few times. Please let the poor lady RIP, but it gives one plenty to think about. At least it did me.