Trad Rack Beginnings: doubles?

William Kramer wrote:Tri-cams work too

Tri-cams are what you give to your friend building their rack before they too can afford doubles. Then they go back in the closet for a few years.

I use cams a lot, like everyone else, but recognize that passive pro is generally more reliable.

So, I also carry 2 or 3 hexes on just about every pitch, regardless of the area (OK, maybe not on IC single pitch), and actually place them on most pitches.

Compared to cams, they are:

• a lot cheaper
• a lot lighter
• almost always more bomber (they don't walk and make secure placements in complex cracks where cams don't)
• sometimes trickier to place (not always, especially if you use them primarily in constrictions, i.e. without relying too much on their camming action), so you tend not to place them in the middle of a crux.

I cannot understand why climbers are moving away from them.

I'd strongly recommend buying 2 or 3 hexes from small hand size to fist size to carry as seconds (or thirds if needed).

Eric and Lucie wrote:I use cams a lot, like everyone else, but recognize that passive pro is generally more reliable... I cannot understand why climbers are moving away from them.

There's two reasons no one really likes hexes and tricams anymore.

1. More difficult to place quickly.
2. Can and do get stuck frequently, making life for the second a drag.

Seriously, I got an entire set of tricams given to me by someone that just hated them. In turn, they sat in my gear trunk for about a decade, to be taken out to give to a friend learning trad and buying gear.

Now you can get your passive pro skills honed well and approach how quickly you can place a cam, but cam placements are just plain easier to assess and execute.

Eric and Lucie wrote:I use cams a lot, like everyone else, but recognize that passive pro is generally more reliable. So, I also carry 2 or 3 hexes on just about every pitch, regardless of the area (OK, maybe not on IC single pitch), and actually place them on most pitches. Compared to cams, they are: * a lot cheaper * a lot lighter * almost always more bomber (they don't walk and make secure placements in complex cracks where cams don't) * sometimes trickier to place (not always, especially if you use them primarily in constrictions, i.e. without relying too much on their camming action), so you tend not to place them in the middle of a crux. I cannot understand why climbers are moving away from them. I'd strongly recommend buying 2 or 3 hexes from small hand size to fist size to carry as seconds (or thirds if needed).

that REALLY depends how you look at it

for example to cover the same range as a big blue DMM dragon 50-85mm @ 195g (or camalot) you would require both the blue and purple WC hexes @ 274g total ...

now granted you have 2 pieces vs 1 ... but if all you needed was a single big blue its more efficient to bring up the dragon/camalot ... not to mention you can bump up larger cams MUCH easier

hexes are generally harder to place while leading at your limit, can rattle out (especially the wired ones) unless you sling em long (not multidirectional), etc ...

now for dirty/wet/muddy/icy/slick rock they work better than cams ... but their "lightness" is overated when you consider their range

as is their "cheapness" if you dont use em too often ... the most expensive gear is the one sitting in yr closet gathering dust

;)

Scott McMahon wrote:... just it's funny how things have changed.

True. I had Hexes and nuts becuase I was new and thats what I could afford. Then I got singles of .5 - 2.5 WC Tech Friends and doubles of 1, and 2 Tech Friends...years later I picked up a single set of Aliens and a #4 BD. I still do not own anything in the 2.5 to 3 range...I guess I'll just buy a full C4 rack a #5 and #6 and call it done. Hexes...hexes stay in the closet unless I am going to TR with newbies...I think 2004 was the last time.

Stich wrote: There's two reasons no one really likes hexes and tricams anymore. 1. More difficult to place quickly. 2. Can and do get stuck frequently, making life for the second a drag. Seriously, I got an entire set of tricams given to me by someone that just hated them. In turn, they sat in my gear trunk for about a decade, to be taken out to give to a friend learning trad and buying gear. Now you can get your passive pro skills honed well and approach how quickly you can place a cam, but cam placements are just plain easier to assess and execute.

Just because you live in an area where they are not useful doesn't mean they aren't gold in some areas. I will not get on the wall where i live without tricams in the smaller size. As far as the big ones, I don't see why you would ever buy them.

bearbreeder wrote:- dont bother with tricams and hexes until you get alot more experience .... theyre more fiddly for the second to clean, more fiddly to place, and can rattle right out if you dont extend them long ...

I haven't gained much experience with tricams so won't address that part of the above comment.

There's an important point here about hexes. The reason hexes can be fiddly to place and clean is when the leader treats them like a replacement for a cam - they are not. In standard gear, nothing is meant for a parallel-sided crack like a spring loaded cam.

Hex placements are much like nut placements - only usually much bigger. Try placing a nut in a parallel-sided crack. It'll be hard to find the one that fits without just rattling out. And if one doesn't rattle out, it barely got in there and will be doubly hard to get back out.

And yet, folks ARE NOT saying to avoid getting nuts until you get a lot more experience.

Don't treat hexes like cams and they won't be fiddly.

bearbreeder wrote:... not to mention you can bump up larger cams MUCH easier

True

bearbreeder wrote:for example to cover the same range as a big blue DMM dragon 50-85mm @ 195g (or camalot) you would require both the blue and purple WC hexes @ 274g total ...

Lies, damn lies, and statistics follow ...

Let's favor the law of averages ... or on average, which is better?

Comparing Metolius Curve Hexes versus Black Diamond C4s, it is arguable that hexes provide 20% more protection on a range-per-weight basis at 1/5 of the cost plus untold increase in durability.

However, one might need to buy one more hex ($8) for a total of 7 hexes to get the overall range of the below 5 BD C4s ... albeit with a little loss in range-per-weight but dramatic increase in "coverage".

Supporting details ...

For set of metolius curve hexes
pieces = 6
range = 0.85" to 2.92"
total weight = 19.6 oz
range per ounce = ~0.106 inches per oz over 6 pieces
cost: $56.90

For equivalent set of BD C4's base on range
pieces = 5
range = 0.77" to 3.46"
total weight = 25.5 oz
range per pounce = ~0.105 inches per oz over 5 pieces
cost: $261.96

Range per ounce is essentially the same for the two. Where does the "20% more coverage" come from? There is one more hex than BD C4s (i.e., 6 pieces versus 5).

Bill Lawry wrote: I haven't gained much experience with tricams so won't address that part of the above comment. There's an important point here about hexes. The reason hexes can be fiddly to place and clean is when the leader treats them like a replacement for a cam - they are not. In standard gear, nothing is meant for a parallel-sided crack like a spring loaded cam. Hex placements are much like nut placements - only usually bigger. Try placing a nut in a parallel-sided crack. It'll be hard to find the one that fits without just rattling out. And if one doesn't rattle out, it barely fit in there and will be doubly hard to get back out. And yet, folks aren't saying to not bother with getting nuts until you get a lot more experience. Don't treat hexes like cams and they won't be fiddly. True Lies, damn lies, and statistics follow ... Let's favor the law of averages ... or on average, which is better? Comparing Metolius Curve Hexes versus Black Diamond C4s, it is arguable that hexes provide 20% more protection on a range-per-weight basis at 1/5 the cost plus untold increase in durability. However, one might need to buy one more hex ($8) for a total of 7 hexes to get the overall range of the below 5 BD C4s. Supporting details ... For set of metolius curve hexes pieces = 6 range = 0.85" to 2.92" total weight = 19.6 oz range per ounce = ~0.106 inches per oz over 6 pieces cost: $56.90 For equivalent set of BD C4's base on range pieces = 5 range = 0.77" to 3.46" total weight = 25.5 oz range per pounce = ~0.105 inches per oz over 5 pieces cost: $261.96 Range per ounce is essentially the same for the two. Where does the "20% more coverage" come from? There is one more hex than BD C4s (i.e., six pieces versus 5).

The difference is that a camalot will always almost be more useful than a hex in the larger sizes

Remember that camalots/dragons/friends are passively rated ... And still work in larger constrictions which tend to be fairly rare around here

As to the weight ... If yr going to compare em against cams weight wise ... Then yr most likely using em as "cam replacements"

If one wants passive gear for the smaller to mid sizes ... Tricams far surpass hexes as they are much more flexible ...

In the larger sizes, outside of certain areas with slick limestone (or the uk) or winter/alpine climbing, hexes are more curiosities than anything else

For the purposes of a newer climber spending their moola wisely ... Cams are a much better investment

;)

bearbreeder wrote:The difference is that a camalot will always almost be more useful than a hex in the larger sizes

Unlikely - mostly because there are relatively significant numbers of features that make a better hex placement than cam placements. Not all of us climb at an Indian-Creek-like environment.

bearbreeder wrote:Remember that camalots/dragons/friends are passively rated ... And still work in larger constrictions which tend to be fairly rare around here

Not rare around here. :-) And there are many placements where a hex is much more secure than a passively placed cam (to be honest, passively placed cams give me the willies).

bearbreeder wrote:As to the weight ... If yr going to compare em against cams weight wise ... Then yr most likely using em as "cam replacements".

Not so. Many places have cracks where the sides are parallel at one point but not a foot or so away.

bearbreeder wrote:If one wants passive gear for the smaller to mid sizes ... Tricams far surpass hexes as they are much more flexible ...

Perhaps so. Again, I'm not experience with tricams but all the better!

bearbreeder wrote:In the larger sizes, outside of certain areas with slick limestone (or the uk) or winter/alpine climbing, hexes are more curiosities than anything else For the purposes of a newer climber spending their moola wisely ... Cams are a much better investment ;)

It may be that in some places, hexes are a curiosity. But who cares?

I believe if a beginner can competently place a nut, they can competently place a hex. Just favor your cams in parallel-sided cracks and look elsewhere (perhaps not far) for your hex placements.

If it is true that hexes sometimes make better placements than cams, why discount them? And the weight of mostly solid nuts apparently becomes prohibitive around 1". Why not take advantage of nut-like places with hexes when sizes get large?

:-)

Bill Lawry wrote: Unlikely - mostly because there are relatively significant numbers of features that make a better hex placement than cam placements. Not all of us climb at an Indian-Creek-like environment. Not rare around here. :-) And there are many placements where a hex is much more secure than a passively placed cam (to be honest, passively placed cams give me the willies). Not so. Many places have cracks where the sides are parallel at one point but not a foot or so away. Perhaps so. Again, I'm not experience with tricams but all the better! It may be that in some places, hexes are a curiosity. But who cares? I believe if a beginner can competently place a nut, they can competently place a hex. Just favor your cams in parallel-sided cracks and look elsewhere (perhaps not far) for your hex placements. If it is true that hexes sometimes make better placements than cams, why discount them? And the weight of solid nuts seems to become prohibitive around 1". Why not take advantage of nut-like places with hexes when sizes get large? :-)

actually squamish has ALOT of constrictions ... by no means is it indian creek

many of the larger "constructions" around here are merely larger pods or gently constricting cracks where a larger cam placed as BOTH active and passive work just fine ... in such cases the spring action of the cam actively helps prevent it from walking/pulling out of the placement compared to a hex

in fact for very open (wide V shaped) constrictions, hexes are often no more secure than anything else unless you can really hammer em in ... good luck for your second to clean those placements !!!

also remember that not only can you bump up a large cam (which you WILL do sooner or later) ... they also work in flares somewhat decently ... a hex just rattles right out of flared cracks

as to vs nuts ... nuts tend to be easier to place in constrictions up to the medium sizes (larger walnuts) ... beyond that tricams or passively rated cams tend to be more useful over the course of the entire pitch, not just in each single placement

now there are types of rocks where hexes are useful just as limestone where the rock can be quite slick

but in general for most folks around here the hexes stay in the closet except for alpine/mixed

or like the folks with the figure 8 ... they tend to be the sign of a very old experience climber ... or more frequently a new one who listened to some intrawebz "advice" and bought new shiny gear based on it

and after a bit of use on moderates stay in the closet gathering dust once that climber has moved onto harder things

;)

It's not been my experience.

Years ago, it was an older experienced climber who said "anywhere a hex can be placed, a cam can too."

Now, after a couple year's experience with them, I much prefer to carry as many hexes as cams ... unless the route-specific beta is otherwise convincing.

In case it matters, I've only been leading for ~11 years ... much but by all means not all of that is limited to the Sandia Mountains. But the same preference has withstood climbing in the Organ Mountains, Red Rock, and the Wind River Range ... none of that is limestone.

bearbreeder wrote: ... the figure 8 ... ;)

Figure 8...wow. I was one of the last people I know to carry one of these (rescue size). I loved repelling and it doubled as a belay plate. I am glad I survived those days. Last Saturday I refused a very safe retreat rap in the rain based on three things. One I survived my early love of Ausie Raps. Two A perfectly safe 3rd class walk-off was available. Three I no longer rap unless it's the only way down. My exact words were "Most climbing accidents occur on rap. Most rap accidents are hasty. I am not going to perform a hasty rap while within 100' of a perfectly safe walk-off." so it's official...I'm old.

Well if one does decide to get some "ding dongs" to supplement camalots ...

Get the Dmm torque nuts ...

Not only do they have the extendible sling ... They are shaped for better camming in parallel cracks ... And color coated to match the camalot sizes

And theyll sound like a cowbell just fine

I hear the brits call em "seagull bashers"

;)

My "Standard Rack":

Aliens Black-Grey (a Red is helpful to transition into the .5 C4)
BD C4 .5-3
DMM HB Brass Offsets
DMM Alloy Offsets
BD Stoppers 3-13
10 "Trad Draws"

...Double up on cams based on route, comfort level, area (e.g. Indian Creek a standard rack may require quintuplets in crucial sizes), or if doing multi-pitch and building belays.

Hope this helps!

andrew.reed wrote:...Aliens...a Red is helpful...

I own a red alien an it is floppy. My .5 WC Tech friend is the same size and way easier to place. That said I use it if doubles are needed

The speed of cam placements vs hexes is an interesting one. In horizontals yes, in vertical cracks the difference is less. I have also noted that many climbers don't trust cams as much so place 2. This ends up being slower than using a wire or hex.

Hexes vs Cams?

I've come to consider hexes as large nuts and don't try to set them with a camming action. That either happens on its own, or it doesn't. But trying to fiddle them into a camming mode is tedious. I use larger tricams for that sometimes. But if it looks like I'll have trouble making passive pro work, I use a cam and move on.

I've founded hexes to be very useful in Eldo, but that's on 5.6-5.8. I'd guess they're less useful on the higher grades. And most places where a hexes works, I could make a cam work, though it might not be as secure of a placement. In fact I'd say anywhere I've fit a solid hexes, a cam would have been likely to shift.

Edited: I'd say that when I climb with MY rack, I end up placing a pretty equal number of nuts, hexes, tricams and cams.

"I've come to consider hexes as large nuts and don't try to set them with a camming action. That either happens on its own, or it doesn't."

+1

NateNelms wrote: Mainly in the linville gorge. Possibly Jim Dandy, The Prow, The Daddy... Those are easier routes I've heard of, maybe others once I get a guidebook for the area/ more advice.

Mountain Project is a good resource for the Linville Gorge and all the route descriptions and comments are usually fairly accurate. The North Carolina Select Climbs is a great resource for NC in general and covers most classic routes in major areas ( amazon.com/Selected-Climbs-…) - If you're an AAC member you can rent it free from the library.

In the grades you're talking about this is my suggestion:

For Tablerock Routes (<5.7) a single rack will suffice fine. Most of the routes have nice bolted anchor stations and some even have a few bolts.

For Amphitheater routes (The Daddy, Mummy, and Prow) a single rack will also suffice (if you're willing to run it out a bit on easy terrain) but having doubles in the range of .5-2 can be nice for building good anchors. This is where having a few Tricams comes in handy. 8-10 alpine draws are also great to have.

If you've got a pretty light rack and want to climb routes in the 5.4-5.7 range here are some good route choices that are fun and protect safely with a light rack:

• Jim Dandy - 5.4 and bolted all the way to the summit
• Cave Route - 5.5
• Skip to My Lou- 5.6, better than Jim Dandy
• The North Ridge - 5.5 Super Classic
• K-Mart Special - 5.6
• Hidden Crack - 5.7
• The Prow -5.4, In the amphitheater but doesn't need a ton of gear to keep it safe
• My Route - 5.6, Well Bolted and great exposure near the top of Tablerock
• Peek-a-boo - 5.6
• Cornsnake Crack - 5.7+, First pitch is okay but second is fantastic

If you plan on going to NC then Tri-Cams will be immensely more useful than hexes. Especially on the granite domes from looking glass and over towards Cashiers.