Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

bearbreeder wrote: No one is immune to brain farts ... John long, lynn hill, etc... All found out the hard way There is also a serious issue with double checks IMO, there is a blind faith in them, but thats another thread

In addition to a visual check before climbing, I push on the carabiner gate to make sure it's locked. I yank hard on my strand, regardless of what belay device is being used, to test that it's threaded properly and attached properly to the harness. Pull on my knot. All while my belayer visually checks.

I also strongly encourage my partners to do the same. I've been known to short rope climbers who didn't check before climbing so they can't leave the ground >:-)

Several of my very experienced climbers don't like it; they take it as an insult. I usually do it anyway, just fast and silently. They get over it.

Morgan Patterson wrote: Sounds like you're making stories up now...

Believe what u want

Doesnt matter to me

Putting a biner though the left hole, but not the one on the plate is not an unknown failure mode, but its not something thats usually mentioned as something to watch out for

Its especially dangerous as the grigri will pass a function pull test

When you climb 200+ days a year outside youll have quite a few "could have lead to am accident" things happen over the years ... The trick is to recognize them and try your best to figure out how to prevent em

Ill post up latter about how my partner failed a self check and almost bought the big one climbing on new years after i do a few laps

csproul wrote: Definitely some truth to this, but a really bad attitude IMO. If you haven't made simple mistakes like this, you've either not been climbing long enough or not paying attention. It will happen. That's why it is important to have a routine in place to catch mistakes before they become accidents, and that's why you have your partner check things too. ... The attitude that "only idiots make mistakes" is exactly the complacency that leads to accidents, and also makes for a shitty climbing partner.

+1 for your reply ... there was some truth, a really bad attidude, and denial of the human-ness none of us escape.

And although I'm a huge fan of checking each other, I also prefer to see one person considered responsible for a given task. The danger with more than one is each may be thinking the other would have caught the fatal flaw.

But, yes, I can imagine really feeling bad and sincerely apologizing to my buddy for not catching his/her mistake if I had the chance.

John Byrnes wrote: In addition to a visual check before climbing, I push on the carabiner gate to make sure it's locked. I yank hard on my strand, regardless of what belay device is being used, to test that it's threaded properly and attached properly to the harness. Pull on my knot. All while my belayer visually checks. I also strongly encourage my partners to do the same. I've been known to short rope climbers who didn't check before climbing so they can't leave the ground >:-) Several of my very experienced climbers don't like it; they take it as an insult. I usually do it anyway, just fast and silently. They get over it.

IME there are is a ladder of checks in order of reliabilty

- verbal check ... "Is yr knot ok"

- visual check ... "Let me see yr knot"

- tacticle check ... "Let me press the biner to make sure the gate is locked"

- function check ... "Let me pull the rope on the grigri"

However one can pass one type of higher level check yet still make a mistake ... For example you can verify the ATC holds yet have an unlocked belay biner

Very few folks, including myself, go through all levels... Sometimes because you cant due to circumstances, other times because u get distracted or lazy, or your partner huffs and puffs

I would say that most experinced folks perform cursory checks at best most of the time ... In fact a newbie fresh out of a gym course likely performs more comprehensive checks than "experienced climbers"

Until they get experienced themselves

Anyways thats probably another thread

Have some compassion for these engineers, they don't deal well with real world situations. They live in their head designing things they will never build. I've had an engineer tell me something won't happen while we watched it happen. After we both saw it happen he told me again, that doesn't happen. There is a difference between being educated and being intelligent. Engineers are educated, not necessarilty the other.

I've caught numerous falls with no hands on the grig at all and never had a problem. Maybe a dedicated break hand isn't needed?

Passive Aggression wrote: I've caught numerous falls with no hands on the grig at all and never had a problem. Maybe a dedicated break hand isn't needed?

It's been stated before, having the belayer unconscious just might be the safest thing.

csproul wrote: Definitely some truth to this, but a really bad attitude IMO. If you haven't made simple mistakes like this, you've either not been climbing long enough or not paying attention. It will happen. That's why it is important to have a routine in place to catch mistakes before they become accidents, and that's why you have your partner check things too. Climbing with a Grigri threaded backwards is just as much the fault of the climber who doesn't check it as it is the fault of the belayer who did it in the first place. The attitude that "only idiots make mistakes" is exactly the complacency that leads to accidents, and also makes for a shitty climbing partner.

My bad attitude comes from the constant attack on a cleverly designed and wonderfully manufactured device, where the error lies in humans- the belayer and sometimes the teacher- and this attack has become concerning and tiresome. It feels like beating a dead horse. I had an earlier post with a lot more patience and understanding.

Your accusation that my lack of mistakes is from not climbing enough or not paying attention makes no sense. On the contrary, the reason I don't thread it backwards or make simple belaying mistakes, why in a fall I automatically use both hands to firmly hold onto the brake strand, is because setting up and belaying correctly is now a habit formed by muscle memory from using it a lot, AND also from paying attention because I check every time.

Only in the beginning did I mess up - and only in my instruction. Because rope management comes naturally to me (I'm an engineer), when I first started climbing I was not a good teacher - my informal instructional lesson didn't encompass EVERYTHING a belayer could mess up on, because it seemed obvious and over information would confuse people.

A few months after I started climbing and using the gri gri, I grabbed a guy who I taught how to belay on an ATC, and had him toprope belay me with my grigri. However, when I got to the top, he said, "hold on" and didn't know how to lower me despite my telling him about the lever. I was afraid he was going to disassemble the device (since I didn't tell him not to), or pull the lever without controling it with his brake hand. Now my "lesson" is much more comprehensive.

So in that way, this discussion is useful so I know what to teach/check for in a new belayer. I've since seen a lot of ATC belayers hold onto mostly the climber side, when it would have never occured to me had I not seen it.

Sorry for my bad attitude but it seems that those people who are attacking this device are going to result in one thing - the call to remove this device from market, yet not providing any better solutions. If you would like to attack, please provide some solutions.

http://www.karstsports.com/petzlgrigri2.html#.VLWkZlozTEk

25% off at Karst Sports.
Be sure to knock your belayer unconscious first, or don't blame me if you get dropped

Mark E Dixon wrote: Be sure to knock your belayer unconscious first, or don't blame me if you get dropped

hahah I like that!

Ana Tine wrote: My bad attitude comes from the constant attack on a cleverly designed and wonderfully manufactured device, where the error lies in humans- the belayer and sometimes the teacher- and this attack has become concerning and tiresome. It feels like beating a dead horse. I had an earlier post with a lot more patience and understanding. Your accusation that my lack of mistakes is from not climbing enough or not paying attention makes no sense. On the contrary, the reason I don't thread it backwards or make simple belaying mistakes, why in a fall I automatically use both hands to firmly hold onto the brake strand, is because setting up and belaying correctly is now a habit formed by muscle memory from using it a lot, AND also from paying attention because I check every time. Only in the beginning did I mess up - and only in my instruction. Because rope management comes naturally to me (I'm an engineer), when I first started climbing I was not a good teacher - my informal instructional lesson didn't encompass EVERYTHING a belayer could mess up on, because it seemed obvious and over information would confuse people. A few months after I started climbing and using the gri gri, I grabbed a guy who I taught how to belay on an ATC, and had him toprope belay me with my grigri. However, when I got to the top, he said, "hold on" and didn't know how to lower me despite my telling him about the lever. I was afraid he was going to disassemble the device (since I didn't tell him not to), or pull the lever without controling it with his brake hand. Now my "lesson" is much more comprehensive. So in that way, this discussion is useful so I know what to teach/check for in a new belayer. I've since seen a lot of belayers hold onto mostly the climber side, when it would have never occured to me had I not seen it. Sorry for my bad attitude but it seems that those people who are attacking this device are going to result in one thing - the call to remove this device from market, yet not providing any better solutions. If you would like to attack, please provide some solutions.

There is nothing wrong with the device. I use one a lot, like nearly 4-5 days a week. I'm certainly advocating it's removal! I'm not going to abandon it, but these lesson do serve as a warning on what not to do, and a reminder to not become complacent. It is possible to constantly learn to be a better belayer.

Your assertion that only stupid people make mistakes and that it can't possibly happen to you is pure ego. Luckily for you, it sounds like you have systems in place to catch the eventual mistake. So let me reiterate, if you climb long enough, you will fuck something up. You are human, it is inevitable. It may not be threading the device backwards, but it will be something equally as stupid. Hopefully you have systems in place to catch the mistake or prevent it from becoming an accident. If you don't believe this, I feel bad for your climbing partners.

Ana Tine wrote: My bad attitude comes from the constant attack on a cleverly designed and wonderfully manufactured device, where the error lies in humans- the belayer and sometimes the teacher- and this attack has become concerning and tiresome.

Well, there was that recall of the Gri-Gri 2...due, apparently, to Petzl's "clever" redesign.

csproul wrote: There is nothing wrong with the device. I use one a lot, like nearly 4-5 days a week. I'm certainly advocating it's removal! I'm not going to abandon it, but these lesson do serve as a warning on what not to do, and a reminder to not become complacent. It is possible to constantly learn to be a better belayer. Your assertion that only stupid people make mistakes and that it can't possibly happen to you is pure ego. Luckily for you, it sounds like you have systems in place to catch the eventual mistake. So let me reiterate, if you climb long enough, you will fuck something up. You are human, it is inevitable. It may not be threading the device backwards, but it will be something equally as stupid. Hopefully you have systems in place to catch the mistake or prevent it from becoming an accident. If you don't believe this, I feel bad for your climbing partners.

I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions based on my post, and interpreting it wrong. I am glad you are not advocating its removal, but I think the collective posts can be taken the wrong way.

I don't think only stupid people make mistakes, but I think many people who are given the huge responsibility and privilege of belaying take it too lightly - they go ahead and belay while not understanding the mechanics or gravity of their mistakes. SO, what I am saying is people who don't take it seriously enough to understand what to do, and do it as best they can, should not belay. I don't see belaying as right, but a privilege, so that is why I sound inflexible.

Your "feeling sorry for my climbers" due to a perceived inabilty to take suggestions is a huge jump to conclusions. I always welcome belaying suggestions (references provided upon request!), tips, and encourage my climbers to correct me if they prefer to be belayed differently or if they see I am doing anything they don't like, and always incorporate any suggestions (after reviewing it) into my belay technique.

I don't think I am infalliable or immune to mistakes, and I actually have been wondering if my posts are going to bite me in butt one day. The reason I sound a bit egotistical and stern it is not because I think I am invincible, but because I put so much care in my belaying that I can't fathom the attitude people who don't take it seriously enough to learn it properly or do it right. It is not a joke, or something like mini-golf where if you do it wrong as a beginner it's fine. It's someone's life in your hands.

I do everything in my power to make sure my climber is getting the best and safest belay possible, double check everything and being ultra-attentive with feeding and taking back slack (e.g. if they miss a clip)... recognizing their body language if I can see them- I treat my climber's life as my own - which is WHY lousy/careless/murky/unknowledgable belaying is a huge pet peeve of mine. I don't think they should have the privilege of belaying.

Ana Tine wrote: I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions based on my post, and interpreting it wrong. I am glad you are not advocating its removal, but I think the collective posts can be taken the wrong way. I don't think only stupid people make mistakes, but I think many people who are given the huge responsibility and privilege of belaying take it too lightly - they go ahead and belay while not understanding the mechanics or gravity of their mistakes. SO, what I am saying is people who don't take it seriously enough to understand what to do, and do it as best they can, should not belay. I don't see belaying as right, but a privilege, so that is why I sound inflexible. Your "feeling sorry for my climbers" due to a perceived inabilty to take suggestions is a huge jump to conclusions. I always welcome belaying suggestions (references provided upon request!), tips, and encourage my climbers to correct me if they prefer to be belayed differently or if they see I am doing anything they don't like, and always incorporate any suggestions (after reviewing it) into my belay technique. I don't think I am infalliable or immune to mistakes, and I actually have been wondering if my posts are going to bite me in butt one day. The reason I sound a bit egotistical and stern it is not because I think I am invincible, but because I put so much care in my belaying that I can't fathom the attitude people who don't take it seriously enough to learn it properly or do it right. It is not a joke, or something like mini-golf where if you do it wrong as a beginner it's fine. It's someone's life in your hands. I do everything in my power to make sure my climber is getting the best and safest belay possible, double check everything and being ultra-attentive with feeding and taking back slack (e.g. if they miss a clip)... recognizing their body language if I can see them- I treat my climber's life as my own - which is WHY lousy/careless/murky/unknowledgable belaying is a huge pet peeve of mine. I don't think they should have the privilege of belaying.

Look, I completely agree with everything above. But I can only go by what you have typed:

Ana Tine wrote: Etched in metal right on the grigri there is a picture of how the grigri is threaded, where the climber should be, and where the brake hand should be. If I hold a gun backwards and point to myself instead of the intended target, whose fault is it? Come on. Idiots shouldn't belay.

Ana Tine wrote:I don't thread it backwards or make simple belaying mistakes

Ana Tine wrote:Only in the beginning did I mess up - and only in my instruction

Ana Tine wrote:A few months after I started climbing and using the gri gri, I grabbed a guy who I taught how to belay on an ATC, and had him toprope belay me with my grigri

Sometimes I fall into this same mentality, too, thinking that people make stupid mistakes and that accidents only occur to stupid people. Or put another way: they are stupid, accidents happen to stupid people, therefore it can't happen to me because I am not stupid. It makes me/us feel safer. I'm glad to see that you don't really feel this way, and like I said, there's some truth to your post, but there's also some danger in that thinking. The reality is that we all will do stupid things at some point and can always do better.

Ana Tine wrote: What year are you living in? It was a quality control issue, was discovered and and has been fixed for a long time. There is something called trial and error in product creation and improvements.

Uh, no. It was a design issue--Petzl's response was to "increase the mechanical strength of the handle." That's a design issue, not a quality control issue.

Are you implying that Petzl took a "trial and error" approach to marketing the gri-gri? I think they would dispute that, and it's a pretty stupid thing to say with respect to a device that is critical to life: the "trial and error" phase obviously should be prior to putting the device on the market.

It's a pretty nifty device, and it works well. But it doesn't mean it couldn't be better. You apparently think the gri-gri is above criticism. Obviously it isn't, since Petzl has seen fit to redesign the device (and had a recall).

Passive Aggression wrote:Have some compassion for these engineers, they don't deal well with real world situations. They live in their head designing things they will never build. I've had an engineer tell me something won't happen while we watched it happen. After we both saw it happen he told me again, that doesn't happen. There is a difference between being educated and being intelligent. Engineers are educated, not necessarily the other.

Don't know who said it first.

slim wrote: if you have a hand on the climber's side it somehow magically nullifies the effect of having the brake hand firmly applied. its a simple fact - an inadequate amount of force was applied to the break end to arrest and maintain the fall. this is inarguable. sure, grabbing the climber's side of the rope can hinder the operation of the cam, but this is a side argument.

No Slim. It is NOT a side argument. The point, which you insist on ignoring, is that grabbing the climbers-side will prevent the Gri-gri from locking even with the brake hand firmly applied.

I don't have tests to back this up, but what seems to be the root cause is when the belayer grabs the climbers-side with slightly more force than the brake hand. Apparently, the absolute grip-forces don't matter, it's the differential that does.

Thus, if the belayer grabs both ropes firmly, almost equally but not quite, the Gri-gri may not lock.

You keep insisting "an inadequate amount of force was applied to the break end" and since you can't even spell, it doesn't surprise me that you continue to cleave to your fantasy even though a dozen posters have confirmed that they had a firm grip.

If you still don't believe it, lets meet in a gym. You climb to the top and several of us will see if we can duplicate the problem with a firm hand on the brake-rope and a GoPro or two.

John Byrnes wrote: No Slim. It is NOT a side argument. ... You keep insisting "an inadequate amount of force was applied to the break end" and since you can't even spell, it doesn't surprise me that you continue to cleave to your fantasy even though a dozen posters have confirmed that they had a firm grip.

(chuckle). Wow. Apparently you missed Slim's point. And its funny that by bringing Slim's spelling error up you inadvertently illustrated Slim's point about side arguments. Good stuff.

You seem to keep missing the forest for the trees when folks like Slim and reboot try to address your concerns. That is, what folks like us are more or less arguing to you is that the belay failure mode lesson to take away is that many different things can cause the cam not to lock up and focusing so single-mindedly on the climbers strand is missing the point, which is...drum roll...pay attention to ALL of the belay variables so that no matter what the situation is, an adequate amount of force is applied so that the cam engages. Making blanket statements about all of the "sub-rules" that need to be followed 100% of the time is brain dead and causes accidents by alleviating the need for the belayer to constantly evaluate their current situation and conduct themselves accordingly. For example, this means that its okay to pull on the climber strand when you are helping a climber jug the rope after a fall to their high point, but its a bad idea to death grip when a heavy climber is falling on a light belayer. But I guess this argument keeps falling on deaf ears because you keep insisting that people that make this point are totally wrong and clueless. Absolute statements rarely hold water and usually make the speaker sound ignorant.

And by the way, if you're going to be a big enough jagoff to rag on someone about their spelling, then perhaps you don't want to misuse a word in the same sentence. That is, I'm pretty sure you meant "cling to" and not "cleave to", yes? Well done sensei.

Another accident due to mis-use of crash pad

youtube.com/watch?v=DF7tOTF…

J. Albers wrote: And by the way, if you're going to be a big enough jagoff to rag on someone about their spelling, then perhaps you don't want to misuse a word in the same sentence. That is, I'm pretty sure you meant "cling to" and not "cleave to", yes? Well done sensei.

"Cleave" happens to be one of those interesting words that is its own antonym. It is being used correctly in the above statement.

(it's the first definition)
i.word.com/idictionary/cleave

John Byrnes wrote: No Slim. It is NOT a side argument. The point, which you insist on ignoring, is that grabbing the climbers-side will prevent the Gri-gri from locking even with the brake hand firmly applied. I don't have tests to back this up, but what seems to be the root cause is when the belayer grabs the climbers-side with slightly more force than the brake hand. Apparently, the absolute grip-forces don't matter, it's the differential that does. Thus, if the belayer grabs both ropes firmly, almost equally but not quite, the Gri-gri may not lock. You keep insisting "an inadequate amount of force was applied to the break end" and since you can't even spell, it doesn't surprise me that you continue to cleave to your fantasy even though a dozen posters have confirmed that they had a firm grip. If you still don't believe it, lets meet in a gym. You climb to the top and several of us will see if we can duplicate the problem with a firm hand on the brake-rope and a GoPro or two.

Let it go. Mort who saw the girl (the belayer) wrote that there was no burns on her left hand, only her brake hand. So please explain how having a hand on the climber side caused this accident?