Ice Climbing Without Ropes

One day, I will fix Al Gore's broken internet.

...worth a click for solo idiot value! (not that all soloists are idiots, but this one is) Who in their right mind would be cocky in teaching an audience how to solo, take off on a route where the likelihood of falling was high, fall and maintain the cockiness? These are the people (soloists included) that I walk away from so that they don't ruin my day when they fall.

vimeo.com/7858740

Here's article written by a professional (makes his living guiding). Maybe it will add insight (fuel?) to this fire.

blog.alpineinstitute.com/20…

Greg Egbert wrote: Also your example is an apples to oranges comparison. Completely different risk profile to the routes. Completely different decision making for each route. Try comparing soloing 100 feet of WI2 and top roping 100 feet of WI2. Same climb. One with a rope. One without. Which has the greater chance of a bad consequence? What is the consequence of a fall from 80 feet up in each case? Is the rope fail-safe? No. Does it increase your chances of surviving? Yes. That's my point.

I'm just jumping in here, but in my experience, more people solo WI2 ice than top rope it. You only wanna top rope it if you are a beginner and/or are trying to work on your French technique.

I like this line:

"And it is not really our jobs to dictate what's right and what's not right to those outside our parties who are unlikely to impact anyone else."

Please watch - especially you OP Greg Egbert - this one hour video for some perspective on soloing and risk from Alex Honnold:

ustream.tv/recorded/51592845

People either get soloing or they don't. And just because they "get it" doesn't mean they want to do it. I fully understand the appeal of soloing. It's free, unencumbered, and as simple as climbing can be. But, just like the OP, I choose not to do it. My risk tolerance just doesn't allow for it. Like most people, however, I still tend to fool myself into thinking I am "safer" by using a rope on run-out climbs and often run out easy climbs intentionally in the name of speed/confidence etc...I'm not really safer, but I guess I rationalize that the rope is there should I decide I need it.

Now to ice climbing specifically; I started ice climbing when ice screws sucked, people used leashes, and snargs were all the rage. Placing pro kind of sucked. Enough so that we just didn't do it as often as we should have. Sometimes it felt like soloing was safer since you didn't get pumped out of your mind futzing around with placing gear, and your partner didn't have to freeze their ass off while you got a screw in. Gear has come a long way since then. Tools are better and screws are better. Getting gear in and out of ice has become a lot more efficient. So some of the gear argument for soloing ice has been reduced (at least in my mind), but that doesn't mean there isn't appeal in it for some. I get it, I just don't want to do it.

Greg Egbert wrote: I'm not sure why you called me out on this. I've seen the video and I read an article by him on risk and consequence. I get it. It still doesn't change my feelings about using a rope. Is there something wrong with the fact that I prefer to use a rope? Is there something wrong with the fact that my opinion about soloing is different than others? Since I have no experience ice climbing, my whole point in asking the question in the OP was to find out if ice climbing without a rope is common. I got my answer and then some.

Soloing ice is very common most proficient ice climbers solo to some degree especially on long route. Most ice climbers who climb a lot of ice are comfortable soloing up to WI 3, not a big deal if you know what your doing. Not uncommon to see climbers soloing WI 5 around here on climbs that are kicked and picked out, again it's not a big deal, ice climbing is easy.

Greg Egbert wrote: I'm not sure why you called me out on this. I've seen the video and I read an article by him on risk and consequence. I get it. It still doesn't change my feelings about using a rope. Is there something wrong with the fact that I prefer to use a rope? Is there something wrong with the fact that my opinion about soloing is different than others?

Question 1: not at all. Most of us prefer using a rope most if not all the time, myself included. You seem to be missing the point that in many specific instances, using a rope is no safer than soloing. In fact the false sense of security can actually be less safe than soloing. A number of posts have attempted to point this out.

Question 2: yes, because you're basing that opinion on a number of misconceptions. Perhaps being a little less defensive and a little more open-minded might help.

No one is suggesting that you solo. It's your outright condemnation of soloing that is causing the friction.

Greg Egbert wrote: Is there something wrong with the fact that my opinion about soloing is different than others? Since I have no experience ice climbing, my whole point in asking the question in the OP was to find out if ice climbing without a rope is common. I got my answer and then some.

Yeah, so why do you insist on trying to ague and refute what people are telling you? Are you this combative in real life or just with strangers on the internet?

Ice climbing without ROPES? That's so dangerous! They shouldn't do that! My kids might see something I don't want them to see! They might be scarred for LIFE! OMG so dangerous!

I think the main lesson here, Egbert, is that whether you're top-roping 5.6's in Minnesota, or soloing the Infinite Spur in a blizzard...

yer gonna die.

Marc801 wrote: You seem to be missing the point that in many specific instances, using a rope is no safer than soloing. In fact the false sense of security can actually be less safe than soloing.

What seriously! Many!
About the only situation is a TR set to a twig and a tied off super stubby.
Toprope is infinitely safer than solo, hands down, no question. Get a grip on reality.

In response to the OP's question ice is more solo friendly than rock up to a point.

rocknice2 wrote: What seriously! Many! About the only situation is a TR set to a twig and a tied off super stubby. Toprope is infinitely safer than solo, hands down, no question. Get a grip on reality. In response to the OP's question ice is more solo friendly than rock up to a point.

We're not talking about top ropes - the OP repeatedly refers simply to "using a rope".

This thread may seem argumentative or unhealthy, but it's brought together climbers from New Jersey, California, Colorado (I bet Ouray boy knows what he's talking about), Utah, the Midwest, and even Canada. With a bit more bickering and bipartisanship, we'd be like Congress!

He repeatedly said toprope.
He thinks soloing is fool hardy and that's his opinion.

Am I safer soloing a WI3 or leading a WI5, I'm not sure. I've done both.

rocknice2 wrote:He repeatedly said toprope.

Truthfully, he kinda munged them together and almost used them interchangably. In one particular case, using "TR" instead of "leading" rather undermined his argument.

Regarding soloing and ice climbing, I always approached leading ice with the mental head of soloing. I just didn't want to fall with at least 26 ways of getting impaled or snagging a foot on the ice, with the high potential of snapping leg and ankle bones. One of several reasons for my quitting ice climbing in the late 80's.

Greg Egbert wrote:I apologize if my lack of clarity has created some confusion. All of the climbing I have done is either top rope or bolted routes on rock. Where, in my opinion, the rope is a beneficial part of the system.

And that is why everybody jumped on you: it was clear from your tone that you didn't have the experience/perspective necessary to offer a meaningful criticism. If you get into trad climbing, alpine, or ice climbing, you will encounter more of these scenarios. It just goes with the territory. You may never solo in your life, but you're kidding yourself if you think that slavishly holding to that rule (rather than deliberately saying "I refuse to climb in a scenario where objective hazard makes the rope a liability") makes you safer.

For a lot of ice climbers, me included, the consequences for any fall (catching a point on the ice and liquifying your ankles, blowing a screw and cratering, impaling yourself) are simply not acceptable, so the climber operates in the same mental space as a soloist: do not fall, and don't get into a situation where you could fall. Because of that, soloing is pretty common (at least, compared to rock climbing).

Based on your anecdote, I question if that dude should've soloed it, but if he'd been on lead and done the same things, I would question his actions more.

if i want to ice climb without ropes, should they be drycoated?

I would just like to point out, you can romanticize it all you want, but PBR still sucks.

Brian Scoggins wrote:Considering how much of a crapshoot ice pro can be (and necessary the running it out can be due to the time/stance/strength required to place it), I've never found much difference between the leading mental space and the soloing mental space. Basically, if I don't feel like I could solo a route, I'll only toprope it.

Points:

1. Ice climbing involves climbing up a frozen waterfall with at least 24 metal blades attached to you. It's inherently a bad idea if your health is what you're worried about.

2. "Ropes" (assuming you were meaning leading and not top-roping) are residual risk management, not THE risk management. The avalanche/rock fall/ice fall will all get you uncomfortable fast ropes or no ropes. When all is said and done an ice climber doesn't say, "Man, I really wish I would have given that project one more go" after a dozen or so whippers. If he can climb it comfortably, he can solo it. If he can't climb it comfortably, he shouldn't be climbing it.

Unless of course you meant top-roping. Then refer to point 1 - everyone has to decide for themselves the amount of risk he or she is willing to assume. I've soloed a little bit. All of it was dumb. All of it was fun. I'm still alive. Maybe next time I'll die. Ice climbing is stupid. All of it was fun.